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Old 15 Oct 2016, 15:13 (Ref:3680234)   #251
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Originally Posted by BLiTZ View Post
Personally, I don't think Clios are quite enough of a feeder for the BTCC. Sure they promote close racing but they don't share the size and bulk of a top tier touring car. You may be able to go four abreast in a Clio, but it doesn't necessarily play out as well in an NGTC car as we've seen in recent seasons!

Back before the BTCC cannibalised the production car cup in 2000 to bolster the grids, you had a series running cars the same size as super tourers just with less power and grip, from what I can remember of the highlights that Channel 4 used to show of the old Powertour package the racing was great!

I think we need another high profile Grp N series (or whatever the equivalent spec is today) in order to give upcoming drivers experience of bigger cars, with different characteristics rather than a one-make series that doesn't quite promote such skills.
I would love to see another proper tin top, saloon or hatch support series on the BTCC bill. I think they kinda attempted something like that last year with the aborted attempt to run the older NGTC machinery as some kind of BTCC feeder, but it never took off due to lack of interest. I think the problem is there is that you have nearly the same running costs but without the media exposure of the main BTCC series, probably doesn't make sense from a financial / sponsor viewpoint.

TCR is practically that, a much cheaper saloon / hatch series, probably a little slower than NGTC but about 1/3 of the cost.
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Old 15 Oct 2016, 18:41 (Ref:3680273)   #252
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Speaking of which has anyone heard if there any plans to get the feeder series off the ground next year, as I seem to remember it was 'only' postponed.

It would be great to have one like that, like the old days of Group N, but it needs demand to take off
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Old 15 Oct 2016, 18:53 (Ref:3680280)   #253
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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
I would love to see another proper tin top, saloon or hatch support series on the BTCC bill. I think they kinda attempted something like that last year with the aborted attempt to run the older NGTC machinery as some kind of BTCC feeder, but it never took off due to lack of interest. I think the problem is there is that you have nearly the same running costs but without the media exposure of the main BTCC series, probably doesn't make sense from a financial / sponsor viewpoint.

TCR is practically that, a much cheaper saloon / hatch series, probably a little slower than NGTC but about 1/3 of the cost.
Something like TCR but with less aero and production bodies (can't stand the Max Power DTM wannabe wide arches all touring cars have spawned since the BTC days) would be great.

Alternatively it wouldn't be that hard to run NGTC cars to a lower spec as a support or feeder series within the Toca package. Not that hard to spec a sealed detuned/restricted Swindon engine. Perhaps drop down to 17" wheels for cheaper tyres and mandate spec sealed dampers etc. Rear wing could be reduced or eliminated completely to make them look a little bit lower league (like the differences in the various Ginetta series) and splitter removed to reduced lap times compared to BTCC. There's plenty of old shells that could be utilised and would provide a great market for old cars within a series with much lower running costs than the top tier due to more control parts unlike the idea of the BTEC series.
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Old 15 Oct 2016, 21:12 (Ref:3680307)   #254
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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
TCR is practically that, a much cheaper saloon / hatch series, probably a little slower than NGTC but about 1/3 of the cost.
I don't know where you get the idea that TCR is a third of the price of NGTC. It would be slightly cheaper... but as you say, slightly slower too.
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Old 15 Oct 2016, 21:21 (Ref:3680308)   #255
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I don't know where you get the idea that TCR is a third of the price of NGTC. It would be slightly cheaper... but as you say, slightly slower too.
I would've said that was correct... Maybe not for International series but for a like-for-like theoretical UK series running TCR machinery, certainly a lot cheaper. That's why TCR is the future to my mind. Or should I not believe what I read?
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Old 16 Oct 2016, 06:37 (Ref:3680525)   #256
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Just out of interest what don't you like about NGTC? I thought it was a pretty well accepted rule set, but would be interested to hear peoples problems with it. I have my criticisms (noise of the cars being the main one) but in the main I think it does a pretty good job. For me the rules are working if you have a capacity grid, big crowds and 50% of the field at least hoping they can win. I loved Super Touring but looking back I wish things that started to happen in 1994 had been nipped in the bud and perhaps we wouldn't have seen the spectacular fall from grace Super Touring suffered in the late 90s early 00s.
Without going on a massive negative rant which helps no one, I'll just say that I'm not especially fond of how the NGTC cars look and how the cars handle in corners. However I will give respect to the organisers for providing a full grid, so in that respect, the rules are working and the crowds are back to what they were in the late 90s after they dwindled a lot in 2000 - 2004...
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Old 16 Oct 2016, 10:38 (Ref:3680663)   #257
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slow cornering speed means better racing


if you see the early super tourers and Group A they had narrow wheels and were spectacular to watch on their own sliding all over the place
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Old 16 Oct 2016, 11:40 (Ref:3680668)   #258
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Without going on a massive negative rant which helps no one, I'll just say that I'm not especially fond of how the NGTC cars look and how the cars handle in corners. However I will give respect to the organisers for providing a full grid, so in that respect, the rules are working and the crowds are back to what they were in the late 90s after they dwindled a lot in 2000 - 2004...
I agree they aren't the most elegant cars to watch through the corners. But I would say that's part of the charm for me that you can really see the drivers fighting the cars which for me is what BTCC is all about. If I want to see high cornering speeds or sophisticated technology on a race car I'll go and watch F1 or WEC (which I do, I don't find it anywhere near as enjoyable as a BTCC weekend IMO).

Definitely agree that the cars aren't the best looking, they've gone a bit boy racer for my liking. I don't think the liveries help, the works cars of the 90s allowing nice and unfussy colour schemes without too many sponsors on them.
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Old 16 Oct 2016, 12:43 (Ref:3680676)   #259
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I agree they aren't the most elegant cars to watch through the corners. But I would say that's part of the charm for me that you can really see the drivers fighting the cars which for me is what BTCC is all about. If I want to see high cornering speeds or sophisticated technology on a race car I'll go and watch F1 or WEC (which I do, I don't find it anywhere near as enjoyable as a BTCC weekend IMO).

Definitely agree that the cars aren't the best looking, they've gone a bit boy racer for my liking. I don't think the liveries help, the works cars of the 90s allowing nice and unfussy colour schemes without too many sponsors on them.
For me they're too wide and the wings look like tacky Halfords specials. Group A, Super Tourers and heck even S2000 (despite their tiny wheels) looked like racing versions of road cars where BTC and NGTC just look clumsy, there's no sharp edges (partly down to the use of GRP vs carbon fibre) and most of the body kits look like 90's rejects.

To be fair Dynamics and WSR have managed to keep the look of the road car bumpers whilst making them more aerodynamic and haven't resorted to the NASCAR-esk efforts of the Speedworks and Handy Avensis or the Motorbase Focus's (the debut bumpers with the road car vents looked much better than the smoothed over jelly molds they're running now).

The widened vented front wings don't flow with the lines of the car cars with that boxy section aft of the front wheels. At least the S2000 wings used to fair back in before the doors.

I don't know who was fully responsible for the concept design or rules concerning the aesthetics of NGTC but I suspect GPRM had a good contribution and from looking at their efforts with the GT4 GT86‘s it's clear to see they've got Stevie Wonder loose with the magic markers in their design dept!
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Old 16 Oct 2016, 13:52 (Ref:3680684)   #260
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I don't get too hooked up on the looks as long as the racing is good and close!
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Old 16 Oct 2016, 19:35 (Ref:3680738)   #261
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I don't know where you get the idea that TCR is a third of the price of NGTC. It would be slightly cheaper... but as you say, slightly slower too.
From what I understand....

Most expensive TCR (Audi RS3) is 130k Euros)
Cheapest new build NGTC is £200k then you need to fund an engine
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Old 17 Oct 2016, 10:41 (Ref:3680868)   #262
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I agree they aren't the most elegant cars to watch through the corners. But I would say that's part of the charm for me that you can really see the drivers fighting the cars which for me is what BTCC is all about. If I want to see high cornering speeds or sophisticated technology on a race car I'll go and watch F1 or WEC (which I do, I don't find it anywhere near as enjoyable as a BTCC weekend IMO).

Definitely agree that the cars aren't the best looking, they've gone a bit boy racer for my liking. I don't think the liveries help, the works cars of the 90s allowing nice and unfussy colour schemes without too many sponsors on them.
The roley-poley body roll the cars have when they corner is something I personally find off-putting. I don't mind seeing a 60's car doing that, in fact I love historics, but a modern racer shouldn't roll as much as these cars do, it looks like their roll bars are broken.

In addition, I think the cars are too heavy. I fully understand that they probably can't get anywhere near the 975kg of the old super tourers, however id have thought getting down to around 1100kg would be achievable. Obviously with more weight, the cars will corner slower. I believe the current cars min weight is 1280kg, but im unsure if thats with or without driver, I think its without driver, so then you add another 80kg on top of that, so your approaching a 1400kg car.

Again, as the above posters have stated, I completely agree. I'm not a fan of the plasticy looking body-kits. Some cars look better than others, but the majority, I think look a little over the top.

I do wonder what will be next for the BTCC in terms of regs. I personally think something like the GT4 rules would be great to see, or failing that adopting the TCR rules, or a variant of TCR.

Last edited by Sodemo; 17 Oct 2016 at 10:49.
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Old 17 Oct 2016, 10:46 (Ref:3680869)   #263
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I don't get too hooked up on the looks as long as the racing is good and close!
This
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Old 17 Oct 2016, 11:22 (Ref:3680877)   #264
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The roley-poley body roll the cars have when they corner is something I personally find off-putting. I don't mind seeing a 60's car doing that, in fact I love historics, but a modern racer shouldn't roll as much as these cars do, it looks like their roll bars are broken.

In addition, I think the cars are too heavy. I fully understand that they probably can't get anywhere near the 975kg of the old super tourers, however id have thought getting down to around 1100kg would be achievable. Obviously with more weight, the cars will corner slower. I believe the current cars min weight is 1280kg, but im unsure if thats with or without driver, I think its without driver, so then you add another 80kg on top of that, so your approaching a 1400kg car.

Again, as the above posters have stated, I completely agree. I'm not a fan of the plasticy looking body-kits. Some cars look better than others, but the majority, I think look a little over the top.

I do wonder what will be next for the BTCC in terms of regs. I personally think something like the GT4 rules would be great to see, or failing that adopting the TCR rules, or a variant of TCR.
I think TOCA likes to keep the regs 'in-house' to keep more control on costs, if you opened the regs up to say GT4 spec it might end up as a manufacturer spendathon which is what nearly finished the BTCC at the end of '99. As it stands, there is just enough incentive for a manufacturer to support a team (a la BMR and now more like Honda are doing with Dynamics) as the car is recognisable as theirs and to be honest that is all it needs for the TV viewer and spectator who is not over exercised on what the engine is or how much of the car is TOCA control parts.

To make the series sustainable, the cars need to be cheapish to build, combined with cost effective to run and importantly to repair and with manageable engine costs. To be honest I think that TOCA have managed this well and made the racing close with a wide variety of 'makes' on track. Because the cars are bespoke to the BTCC this also keeps cars in the series to filter down the grid before they finally go off to Britcar or wherever to live out the rest of their days.
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Old 17 Oct 2016, 11:24 (Ref:3680879)   #265
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The roly-poly cornering look isn't ideal, but it's certainly fast. A friend of mine that works has worked as an engineer for various IMSA and Indycar teams (and because I supply him with good whisky, has given me pointers on my car setup) has always said "the fastest setup is the softest you can run the car without actually lifting the inside tires." It sounds contrarian, and is definitely not what most drivers (especially in open wheel cars tend to prefer, especially if they've come from karting), but the data doesn't lie in the end.

As a driver you want the car to respond RIGHT NOW, but at the very limit, you have to give up some response for greater overall grip. Me, of course, I just toss it in the corner with a blur of hands and elbows and hope I come out the other side, but that's more a lack of talent than technique

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Old 17 Oct 2016, 18:56 (Ref:3680961)   #266
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speaking of Team HARDs Volvos from unicorn land I just remembered something


does anyone know why nobody brought a Group A Volvo 240 Turbo in the BTCC during the 80s ?

it was a very competitive in 85-86 ETCC seasons and think it could have done well in BTCC up to 1987

you can see here how competittive it was
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF8oaqURlx8
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Old 17 Oct 2016, 19:46 (Ref:3680970)   #267
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speaking of Team HARDs Volvos from unicorn land I just remembered something


does anyone know why nobody brought a Group A Volvo 240 Turbo in the BTCC during the 80s ?

it was a very competitive in 85-86 ETCC seasons and think it could have done well in BTCC up to 1987

you can see here how competittive it was
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF8oaqURlx8
Wow! I've never seen that track before, what a beauty! Final 2 corners weren't for the feint of heart.
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Old 17 Oct 2016, 21:01 (Ref:3680980)   #268
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From Rob Austin's end of season blog:

"I am now working with the guys to put our commercial packages together and to implement our winter development programme. We are also hopeful that we might have a big announcement to make at the ASI show in January as well."

Second car, surely?
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Old 18 Oct 2016, 08:29 (Ref:3681049)   #269
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From Rob Austin's end of season blog:

"I am now working with the guys to put our commercial packages together and to implement our winter development programme. We are also hopeful that we might have a big announcement to make at the ASI show in January as well."

Second car, surely?
Well Sherman is for sale. Love the advert text;

"The shell has had some cosmetic repairs as you would expect from any BTCC car but is very straight and well maintained."

That car is like Trigger's Broom.

https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Adver...-btcc-ngtc-car
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Old 18 Oct 2016, 08:44 (Ref:3681053)   #270
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Needed a bit more than cosmetic repair from that Brands paddock hill crash....
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Old 18 Oct 2016, 09:09 (Ref:3681057)   #271
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Bit of a shame that the Audi is no longer on the grid, ive always relished the RWD vs FWD yin and yang battles, for me its an integral part of real touring car racing. Thankfully we have Subaru and BMW still here holding up the flag for RWD.

I personally would love to see AWD allowed again, although the weight penalties would have to be excessive.
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Old 18 Oct 2016, 09:50 (Ref:3681062)   #272
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From Rob Austin's end of season blog:

"I am now working with the guys to put our commercial packages together and to implement our winter development programme. We are also hopeful that we might have a big announcement to make at the ASI show in January as well."

Second car, surely?
Ive also heard mutterings that sticking with the Avensis isnt necessarily a certainty.
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Old 18 Oct 2016, 10:48 (Ref:3681067)   #273
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Given the excellent late season form that Rob Austin showed, I think he would do well to stay put in the Avensis.
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Old 18 Oct 2016, 11:39 (Ref:3681078)   #274
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Given the excellent late season form that Rob Austin showed, I think he would do well to stay put in the Avensis.
Plus, I am sure Handy had a 2nd Avensis in build, anyone know how far that build went?
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Old 18 Oct 2016, 11:39 (Ref:3681079)   #275
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My thought as well, they finally found the magic button in that car. With a new car they'd have to start all over again?
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