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Old 3 Jun 2009, 10:13 (Ref:2474579)   #101
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just as they were "In Period".
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 10:20 (Ref:2474581)   #102
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by terence bower View Post
Just as they were "In Period".
very true!
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 11:05 (Ref:2474603)   #103
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Two spectators browsing through thier programs, "Whats on next"? Formular Ford. "Oh,Should we go for a coffee then"?
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 11:23 (Ref:2474615)   #104
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Originally Posted by simon drabble View Post
I actually agree with John on this - pitstops should only be compulsory in 2 driver races and then I agree with minimum 1 minute stop to equalize 1 and 2 driver teams whether the single driver gets out or not I am less fussed by as I think sitting in a car for 1 minute is prabably more frustrating!
In respect to the 3 Hour it would be interesting to run it one year with FIA saloons as well and possibly without the invited sports racers...
The 30sec pitstop did seem rather pointless for drivers, and if they all came in at exactly the speed limit, stopped for exactly 30 secs and then observed limit on way out there should be no gain or loss. And as also observed, it does break up good dices. Maybe it made it more interesting for spectators.

3hr for FIA saloons and GTs? Yes please!
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 11:26 (Ref:2474617)   #105
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'll bet there could be an even bigger grid for such a race Mike,on the grounds that there are more of these cars than sports-racers.
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 11:44 (Ref:2474628)   #106
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Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa View Post
Well all I can say is that I watched the HFF race from Russell and saw a very good clean battle between the leaders. Then I saw two Lotus 61's fighting for 11th place, the leader of the two weaving from side to side (this is on acceleration in 1st gear from Russell!) to stop the car behind from passing him. Now I don't know the exact circumstances of this accident but I was not surprised that when the red flag came out it was these two cars that did not come around.
Marcus, I understand your frustration at your shortened race. The apology was from 'dikko', one of the Lotus 61 drivers involved, so I think that we should respect the fact that he has done so publicly, particularly since he is also distraught, no doubt, about the injuries received by his friend and sparring partner in the dice, Neil Davies. It maybe that in having the unusual situation of two 61s actually racing closely together, the adrenalin rush was greater than usual, but I have to say than in the years I have been watching Dick, he has never struck me as one who indulges in dangerous driving. I didn't see the incident either, so have no view on where blame should be apportioned or if in fact it was merely a racing incident.

(I'm sorry not have caught up with you Marcus; every time I approached you were in deep conversation!)

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Certainly I agree that is not racing I would want to see in any race that I was in - I wasn't there so cannot comment in the context of the actual race but felt your comments (given there was certainly one injury requiring hospitalization) were not in great taste....
Simon, I understand your point also. Although it came across as a bit insensitive, I'm sure Marcus's comments were directed to his view of the quality of the driving rather than any lack of sympathy to the injured drivers.

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Historic FF always looks looks like an accident waiting to happen to me, outside the top few places. Often you don't have to wait very long either.
We were very unfortunate in that we had 3 major accidents involving HFF on Sunday, 1 in practice, and 2 in their race 1. However, I don't regard this as a typical day out for them, and let's not forget that this series regularly and consistently provides some of the closest racing of any historic series. Many of the cars and drivers are close in performance and they spend a lot of time in very close proximity to each other on the track, so maybe a higher incidence of contact is more likely than in some of the other races. I neither defend nor condone, merely observe that this is a factor we need to take account of. I saw none of the accidents; I suspect that if there are issues that need to be addressed, they will be raised appropriately at the drivers meetings, and whilst noting the comments, since, with the exception of dikko, none of us were involved or saw them, I feel that we should probably now move on.
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 11:44 (Ref:2474629)   #107
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bigvalveelan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think I'd prefer not to have the pit stop if there are no driver changes. If we do have them then they need to be policed (which is more work for organisers) as we historic racers haven't shown ourselves to be quite the gentlement we're assumed to be. ie if I think my competitor is going to take a shorter time or speed down the pitlane, etc then what am I likely to want to do?

Overall, it's always nice to try something different, but in this case I think it brings in a complication that we don't really need. That's not intended as any criticism of a superbly organised meeting.

Paul (HRS #46)
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 11:55 (Ref:2474642)   #108
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Paul, thanks for that; I was beginning to think that I was speaking out of turn(er!). It's always good to try new ideas, but I just think that, in practice, this has turned out not to be a particularly successful one. Wholeheartedly agree with your final sentence, too. It was a superb meeting, and gets better every year.

The comments are noted about the sports racers, but they have been the dominant force since the return of this race 3 years ago, and they do create quite a spectacle.

Terry, I'll have you know that I still have my own teeth!
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 12:07 (Ref:2474649)   #109
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
without wishing to shout my own corner I dont think that many have a problem with twin cam pre 66 sports racers as they are mostly about the same as a quick E Type/Cobra. The 6 Hour at Spa worked very well for several years with saloons/GT and sportscars and sports racers
However totally agree with all the comments about the quality of meeting - especially when we remember this is just a clubbie meeting....
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 12:16 (Ref:2474656)   #110
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dikko should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As the other Lotus 61 driver I must take issue with Marcus about Formula Fords and their reputation AND our driving. Yes we are very close and have been (particularly Neil and I) for a good few years, our accidents are not deliberate and the majority being due to over-exuberance-caused (spinners etc) and not by any means down-right chopping incidents. In fact we have a private policing policy for those who get red mist.
Neil and I were having a great deal of fun which included slip-streaming which requires trying to shake off the man behind. This may have looked like weaving but there is no intention of harsh blocking, in fact one of our policies (as it is with most historic racing as I'm sure you know) is to respect anyone who gets their cars' nose equal to the drivers' and 'give' them cornering room. This happened virtually every corner of every lap at Snett including our last corner when I gave way to Neil's attack at Riches and went on the inside of him coming out. This we'd done a couple of times before but on this occasion I think Neil moved back to protect his lead without realising I was on the inside parallel to him and we touched. I hope, and I'm pretty sure, I didn't drift out to him. There was no nastiness, no cut and thrust because we both (all of us) realise that our little cars are pretty precarious and precious.
It is the nature of FF's to be that close and we go into it knowing it's close without being cavalier. Sunday's incidents were 1/ silliness in practice 2/ A bit of inexperience trying to miss a spinner and in Neils case 3/ an error that hasn't happened in 15 years of close-but-fun racing.
We genuinely don't want you to think of us as a bunch of idiots out for glory. Because of our standardisation of spec we race closely, yes we are susceptical to accidents but only because of that and that alone.
Marcus you mistake us. Contrary to how it looks to spectators on the track we are all good friends off it.
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 12:18 (Ref:2474658)   #111
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
And there was me thinking I'd gotten away with the comment John.
I do actually agree that pitstops in a short race are a waste of time from a drivers point of view.I can only think that the reason the HSCC thought it necessary would be to increase team interest/spectator excitement but other than those two reasons
Regarding pit lane speeds,something that has been an issue recently but it certainly is no excuse saying that the Adrenaline was still pumping,any driver should be able to control himself enough to release that when he gets to the green light at the end of the pitlane! Over here,we are just not strict enough on issues such as this.


Going back a few years to the GroveAir 3hr days,there were not that many SRacers around then,and quite honestly,I always enjoyed them more with a more saloon/ roadsport grid,one other thing as well was that there seemed to be less attrition then as well,possibly something to do with extra stress's being loaded?
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 12:53 (Ref:2474679)   #112
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Colin McKay should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridColin McKay should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As a driver, I enjoy the tactics of a pitstop and it lets the crew feel as if they're doing something useful for a change. The non-driver-change 1 minute however seemed an eternity, I had to check the laptimes as I was convinced my timekeeper had missed a minute.

Re policing, what did the stop-go penalties for pitlane infringements relate to in the saloon race? Someone was obviously watching!

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Old 3 Jun 2009, 13:23 (Ref:2474703)   #113
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I agree with Dick and lets hope the FF crashes don't tarnish its reputation for being the best value historic series going. It was a bad weekend for them clearly, but one that was out of character. The cars are evenly matched and the racing is close so the odd incident is bound to happen, but the driving standards are generally very high. Some of the drivers in more powerful single seaters could learn a lot from doing a season or two in Formula Ford or Formula Junior.

Terry I see your point about Sundays races all being single seaters but if you were there on Saturday it was mainly closed wheel. Sitting watching the 3hrs for the first hr was most enjoyable. I don't understand the calls to drop the pre 68 invitation class in deference to FIA saloons, it seems an almost ridiculous suggestion.
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 13:35 (Ref:2474710)   #114
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
pre 68 invitation cars are a sensitive point. Personally I dont have a problem with them as I am not talented enough to consider an outright win but there are those that will not race with Guards because they dont want to be blown away by B8's etc...
It would certainly be more in period keeping to have FIA appendix K saloons and there is currently no where for them to stretch their legs for 3 hours in UK
there is no right or wrong in this one merely views. I dont know how big a grid HSCC would be allowed to run but it would certainly be full!
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 13:48 (Ref:2474717)   #115
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Yes, excellent post, explanation and clarification from Dick Dixon above, and I'm very pleased that he saw fit to respond in such a way.

Interesting comment from Colin McKay regarding pit stops giving us the other side of the coin; thanks, Colin.
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 14:10 (Ref:2474731)   #116
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It was already full! If the b8's were taken out the pre 66 sports racers would blow everything else away anyway. The Crossle would still be eligible and an Elva Mk8 would be also. Both of these are no slower than a B8.

Personally as a spectator I would rather watch B8's and Gt40's than over prepared Lotus Cortinas and Mini Coopers but I agree Simon its very subjective.
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 14:30 (Ref:2474736)   #117
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Jame's,I was there all weekend,in the SC for the first and third hours of the three hour plus alternate races [where needed].
Simon,I seem to remember grids in excess of sixty cars in the GroveAir day's.I have been looking for some of my old result's sheet's to check this figure but can't find them but I do remember the first ten or so lap's being fairly busy!
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 14:59 (Ref:2474752)   #118
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Race 4 - Derek Bell Trophy

6 starters; 3 finishers.

The entry for this 25 minute race was 10 (in the programme) augmented by the late entry of Simon Hadfield in the Trojan T101 (freshly rebuilt from its accident with Stuart Tilley last year) so although light in number, it still promised spectacle. Unfortunately whilst 10 came out in qualifying, we lost 4 during this period through various mechanical ailments. Thus just 6 cars appeared on the grid for the race; 5 x F5000 cars and 1 x F2 car.

Simon Hadfield had placed the Trojan (40) on pole and Richard Piper was alongside with his Lola T332 (4). Neil Glover was on the 2nd row with his Lola T300 (30), in its new original livery, and speaking to him beforehand, he expressed the intention, with his particularly strong engine, to attempt to grab the lead from the start, although he accepted that he probably wouldn't stay there long. Well, he had a good crack at it, powering passed Piper and getting alongside Hadfield but couldn't quite make it stick. Hadfield held the line as Glover then briefly gave way to Piper, but quickly regained 2nd place and started to ease away from the red T332. Meanwhile Hadfield was inexorably pulling away, having posted fastest lap as early as lap 2, and then entered cruise mode. In the middle of the race Glover's rear tyres went off and he had to ease his pace which allowed Piper to get on his tail. Only the increased grunt down the straights prevented Piper getting alongside. They were both suffering tyre degradation but as they eased the pace to accommodate this condition, the performance of the tyres started to return, and Neil finished 2nd, according to the results, nearly 7 secs ahead of 3rd place Piper, but I thought it was much closer. Gregory Thornton had a very lonely race in his Surtees TS11 (1) and retired after completing 19 laps of this 21 lap race. The other two cars to start, the Gurney Eagle of Judy Lyons and the Chevron B47 of Jamie Brashaw didn't survive long enough for me to get a decent pic of either. When the winner, Simon H extracted himself from the Trojan the back of his overalls was covered in oil and fuel from leaks, but despite this, immediately inserted himself into Michael Schryver's B6 for the start of the 3 Hours. I guess that in the light of the above account, no captions to the pics are necessary:-
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 15:03 (Ref:2474757)   #119
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quite an achievement to have managed a shot with two cars in it all things considered!!!
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 15:07 (Ref:2474761)   #120
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Andrew Kitson should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAndrew Kitson should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAndrew Kitson should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridAndrew Kitson should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I'd love the thought of seeing a 3-hour saloon race - like we used to have at Snett in the '60s, the old 500km ETCC race. Ideally for me, perhaps this meeting could become a sort of East Anglian historic festival, a 3-day meeting with all qualifying on the Friday. Then wall-to-wall racing Sat & Sun with the Autosport 3-hr plus support races on the Saturday and the 3-hr saloons on Sunday plus supports. Would that work?
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 15:07 (Ref:2474762)   #121
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The race for 2nd was pretty good in fact, once Neil's rear tyres had 'gone off'. It's why I'm a bit perplexed by the gap between him and Piper at the end.
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 15:16 (Ref:2474765)   #122
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Like I suggested Earlier Andrew,qualify the Saloons Sat Morning and Race the Sunday morning,race start at 9.30.Just right for lunch!
Colin,most of the pitlane infringements were re-fueling related,IE,not having someone dressed in Fire Proofs or having no-one at all who was in charge of the required Extinguisher whilst refueling.
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 15:19 (Ref:2474768)   #123
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...or perhaps just practice & qualifying for the two 3-hr races on the Friday with a morning warm-up on the day of each race, other classes come along for qual & race on the same day as single headers, except DBT which does both days. Would be good I think.
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 15:22 (Ref:2474770)   #124
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Hmmmmm,I wonder if Graham will get to hear of whats being written on here.??
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Old 3 Jun 2009, 15:33 (Ref:2474775)   #125
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Hmmmmm,I wonder if Graham will get to hear of whats being written on here.??
Well Chris pops in now and then Terry. If there were two 3hr races, one Guards sports the other saloons, people like Roger or Les Ely with cars eligible for both would have a hell of a weekend, lots of laps...or how about Cadwell!
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