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Old 5 Jan 2017, 13:14 (Ref:3700308)   #151
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None of us on this forum really know the detail of driver's personal position and it is fruitless to speculate on such detail. Given that all the current cars are within about 105% the question remains, would a team make more, or faster progress up the grid by placing more emphasis on talent than budget
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Old 5 Jan 2017, 13:51 (Ref:3700321)   #152
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None of us on this forum really know the detail of driver's personal position and it is fruitless to speculate on such detail. Given that all the current cars are within about 105% the question remains, would a team make more, or faster progress up the grid by placing more emphasis on talent than budget
I think the spirit of your initial question is if you spend more on the driver or the car? I think a backmarker car with a top level driver will push you a position or two ahead in the overall driver points at end of season and not much if anything more. If you are at the edge of getting points and then end of year money, then that might be worth the risk. You are still robbing peter (car development) to pay paul (the driver) so it may be a wash and the quality driver only outperforms his poor teammate but with no forward movement for the team. And if you are already scoring points, then lack of driver talent is probably not what is holding you back.

To your question directly above "talent or budget". It's not an "either/or" proposition. You need a budget to get talent. And the talent is not all on the driver side. To the larger question... the focus should be on obtaining stable funding, so you can build a quality team that can work well together.

I think some teams may subscribe to the "super chicken" model. Watch this for details...

https://www.ted.com/talks/margaret_h..._order_at_work

Personally, I am somewhat leery of taking the behaviour of chickens to model human behaviour, but... I generally agree with the problem with super chicken organizations.

So in short, it's maybe less important to hire an Adrian Newey as it is to have a team that works well together (if you can do both, even better!). I don't know much about Force India, but they seem to be doing something right with a smaller budget. I suspect it is high productivity via good teamwork and management.

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Old 5 Jan 2017, 15:53 (Ref:3700347)   #153
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Well Richard, my initial proposition was that if a team gets extra money where is it best to spend it, driver ability or engineering. I do agree that long term, better engineering is likely to give lasting benefit but I also have had a bee in my bonnet for quite a while that we may not be attracting the very best drivers to F1 because of an over reliance on budget contribution.

The Autosport piece that set me off suggests that tenths of a second cost millions to find for the top teams and I feel drivers offer teams such as Manor more bang for their buck.

Comparing drivers ability is difficult and one of my connections feels that at the top level of motorsport we pay too little attention to driver coaching. I have no way of answering the question but how many top drivers, not just in F1 but in all world series actually have a coach as would be the case with a top golfer or tennis player? And how many tenths would a coach find?
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Old 8 May 2017, 21:39 (Ref:3732335)   #154
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Autosport has published what the F1 teams got in terms of FOM money for last year
Ferrari was top of the pile with $180 million US$, Haas were at the bottom with $19 million. Interestingly Force India who finished one place behind Ferrari in the constructors championship only got $72 million which is about 40% of what Ferrari got.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129388
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Old 9 May 2017, 01:10 (Ref:3732353)   #155
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Autosport has published what the F1 teams got in terms of FOM money for last year
Ferrari was top of the pile with $180 million US$, Haas were at the bottom with $19 million. Interestingly Force India who finished one place behind Ferrari in the constructors championship only got $72 million which is about 40% of what Ferrari got.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129388
The McLaren payments based on their previous recent record make no sense at all.

I assume Renault is losing money due to having taken the team back over, although I thought that negotiation of the historical payments lapsing had been a sticking point and had been "sorted out" with Bernie because they were a manufacturer.
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Old 10 May 2017, 06:23 (Ref:3732582)   #156
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^^ No takers?

Last edited by wnut; 10 May 2017 at 06:38.
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Old 10 May 2017, 18:04 (Ref:3732700)   #157
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indeed, Renault were looking for historical payments as a requirement for their return but i dont recall how those negotiations worked out. i would assume they did work out as Renault came back.

but from the current summary it does not seem like they get anything extra at all from the prize fund (which may require unanimous consent by the teams to change) so if i was to venture a guess then i would say they received a special payment from outside the prize fund?

as for Mclaren...im not sure which years but i think i read that it covers wins over a four year period (maybe read it on Saward). i havent looked at the points table but with a several wins in 2012 im assuming the calculation is based on 2012 and 2015...in which case they wont be seeing that bonus next year.
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Old 10 May 2017, 19:57 (Ref:3732716)   #158
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My main comment is that it's interesting how those figures all line up in neat columns with nice names like "Long Standing Team". When in reality... It's just teams who wanted (and negotiated) more money, so FOM just creates categories and formulas to generate the expected outcome. Sort of makes it look like there was a grand scheme to begin with.

Generally speaking I think the foundation should be a simple equitable payout system. Beyond there being powerful loosers in that scenario and something like this would require some real strength by Liberty to say "no" to the likes of Ferrari.... I see the problem of it creating something similar to the "Start and Park" scenario in NASCAR. I don't follow NASCAR, but I am aware of the concept. It is teams who really don't try hard, but still get money. You show up, run little in the way of practice and after a few laps in the race retire due to a "mechanical issue" and then collect a purse for last place. It becomes profitable because you never really spend the money required to run a full race or be competitive. But I am sure some solution could be found. I think NASCAR has something that combats that issue.

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Old 16 Jul 2017, 11:51 (Ref:3751666)   #159
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This forum's least favourite journalist has written to confirm that the UK's Serious Fraud Office (SFO) is to carry out a "thorough examination" of potential bribery allegations concerning the signing of the 2013 Concorde Agreement. This follows a formal complaint from the Chairman of the House of Common's Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee into how certain payments are or will be paid to certain teams, payments to the FIA and also how certain teams have privileged voting rights over certain matters.

Mind you, based on past experience , all the current participants could have left this mortal coil by the time that the SFO has finished it's deliberations, and it's track record both in the courts and prior negotiations leave a lot to be desired. They could learn a lot from the American corporate justice system.
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