Oldies but Goldies - general discussion (split from Top Hat meeting)

[John Turner]

The Standard Vanguard was also on Minilite type wheels. I think we need to allow some flexibility on these issues. In general the engines are providing more power than in period and suspension no doubt better sorted with tyres which even if of original tread pattern are going to provide better grip. This all places extra stress on cars some of which are over 50 years old, so stronger wheels would seem acceptable. The Vanguard had discs on the front, and although I haven't checked, I would imagine that they came out of the factory with drums. The fact is that these cars are all great fun and provide variety in size and shape; I just wish more of them turned out.

I wouldn't be too critical of the SC driver. The lead cars are well tweaked and there is little doubt that Richard was taking the first 3 cars round at a pretty reasonable lick.

[simon drabble]

John dont get me wrong I really like watching 50's saloons race (more than 60's to be honest) and have no real issues with them being a little non standard as I believe they are pre FIA papers. Watching a Jaguar MkV11 being driven with conviction is a rare treat - I think I am just in shock seeing a Rover 75 on a track!!!

The safety car driver coment was a friendly dig at a fellow poster that backfired because it transpires he wasn't driving the SC in that race!

[delta]

Reading your last post John looks like this topic will end up joining on to the back of Simon Hadfields "development in historic motor sport" , I do agree with you on the safty issue.PS still waiting for the Westie engine.PPS will be at Silverstone tomorrow so the offer still stands if anyone wants a cup of tea.

[delta]

Must get on and do some work but the Rover was not a 75. My dad had one and it had a fog lamp on the middle of the grill.

[simon drabble]

On a connected front does anyone want to take my Masters test day slot at donington next Thursday as I am now unable to use it.... I am sure we can come to a mutualy agreeable pricing...

[terence]

Originally Posted by delta

Reading your last post John looks like this topic will end up joining on to the back of Simon Hadfields "development in historic motor sport" , I do agree with you on the safty issue.PS still waiting for the Westie engine.PPS will be at Silverstone tomorrow so the offer still stands if anyone wants a cup of tea.

As I've just finished my last contract Iain,there could very well be at least one who will take up the offer.;]

At mate from years ago had a Cyclops Rover,he traded it for a 105S,pretty quick for its time and what it was carrying in terms of weight though.

[John Turner]

Simon, I think that I probably prefer the 50's cars to the 60's to watch because of the sheer variety but then I was a child of the 50's; what's your excuse? Seriously, I think it's great to see the Rover out (incidentally, it was a 100 - 2.6 litre, not the smaller engined 75). If you study pics from the early to mid 50's you see all sorts of unlikely cars racing, Alvis, Armstrong Siddeley, Riley RMs and perhaps less surprisingly such as Jowett Javelins, Healey Elliotts, Riley Pathfinders - all great stuff - bring em out, I say. I think if I ever felt able to go racing, and since I couldn't afford the more modern exotica, the 'Oldies but Goldies' would be my choice, but with something completely of the wall. How about a Sunbeam Talbot 90, one of my favourites from the 50's and a great rally car?

[terence]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Simon, I think that I probably prefer the 50's cars to the 60's to watch because of the sheer variety but then I was a child of the 50's; what's your excuse? Seriously, I think it's great to see the Rover out (incidentally, it was a 100 - 2.6 litre, not the smaller engined 75). If you study pics from the early to mid 50's you see all sorts of unlikely cars racing, Alvis, Armstrong Siddeley, Riley RMs and perhaps less surprisingly such as Jowett Javelins, Healey Elliotts, Riley Pathfinders - all great stuff - bring em out, I say. I think if I ever felt able to go racing, and since I couldn't afford the more modern exotica, the 'Oldies but Goldies' would be my choice, but with something completely of the wall. How about a Sunbeam Talbot 90, one of my favourites from the 50's and a great rally car?

As you say John,a great rally car but an absolute pig to restore! So over engineered body wise,the have strengthening panels on strengthening panels! and of course as a result are very heavy,perhaps why they were so good as rally cars.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by delta

Must get on and do some work but the Rover was not a 75. My dad had one and it had a fog lamp on the middle of the grill.

Must have been one of the early 'Cyclops' cars, Iain. Later 75s didn't have that.

Warming to the theme; how about an earlier Beetleback Vanguard, or an Austin Somerset, or an Atlantic, even. I feel a campaign to get these cars out on track coming on. I suspect though that most owners would feel that survivors from this period are deserving of more respect than hammering them around race tracks in their dotage (the cars, not the owners!).

[simon drabble]

Austin Somerset - great call. What engine did they have? And I am sure they raced in period - although having just googled them I fear they would be highly uncompetitive! My Godfather's wife had a convertable when I was a child

[John Turner]

Ok, this discussion split off. Let's go for a fantasy grid. Don't worry about competitiveness, Simon; these are just fun cars! Also might be interesting to discuss the level of mods allowed. Anyone got easy access to the regs?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Anyone got easy access to the regs?

http://www.themastersseries.com/reso..._Regs_2009.pdf

There you go

[zefarelly]

they're on the masters website I think and where published also as GOodwood regs

its a bit like Gp5 but more relaxed!

[Peter Mallett]

There is certainly something about these cars. IMO they probably represent the closest to the period club saloon racing that we can get. All the mods were available to competitiors in period and indeed because they are allowed it means less likleyhood of rule bending. (Goodwood excepted).

[John Turner]

That's great John, Zef, thanks. I've pinched a bit here:-

3.1. CLASS STRUCTURE
3.1.1.
A Over 2,701cc
B 1,601cc-2,700cc
C 1,201cc-1,600cc
D Up to 1,200cc
S Speedwell – 1,300cc (for cars using BMC 1275 and Triumph 1296 based engines
3.1.2. S Class ‘Speedwell’ is open to cars using the BMC 1275 (max 1,293cc) and Triumph 1,296cc engines including the Austin A35, A40, Standard 8, 10, Triumph Herald Coupe.
3.1.3. The Jaguar MkI is only eligible whilst fitted with either a 2.4- or 3.4 litre engine. It is not accepted that entrants use any engine block in a Jaguar Mk1 except an original block maintaining its original capacity.
3.1.4. Individual cars that conform to a model configuration from the same manufacturer that raced at an earlier date but which were manufactured after the class cut-off dates will be allocated to the earlier class, provided they have not been modified or up-rated to the later specification.

This has answered a few questions for me already, especially regarding the small engined BMC cars. Quite generous allowance isn't it?

Peter, I agree. An Alvis TC21/100 (Grey Lady) would be good, but not the fantastic but OTT version that the late and much missed Gerry drove at the Revival. A total Goodwood special that hotrod; I'd love it as a road car though!

[John Turner]

Simon, the Austin Somerset had only a 1200cc engine. See here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_A40_Somerset

Amazing the size of the bodies these little engines had to lug around. Of course the Somerset replaced the slightly smaller in size Devon. I remember having Dinky models of both, as well as an Atlantic when I was a child; come to think of it I think they might still be up in the loft; might have to get them out and race them round the carpet! The A90 Atlantic, of course had the big 4 pot (2.6?) that later went into the early Austin Healeys. A hard top version of the Atlantic on the grid would be great.

A 3.4 Mk1 Jag would be great fun and competitive on faster tracks I would have thought even allowing for the narrow rear axle. Very chuckable, surely?

[delta]

It was my job as a small boy to polish all the crome work on Dads Rover 75 thats why i have allways rememberd the central fog light. Just to be an anorack the reg was JOR23. Never fogot that one,

[zefarelly]

I don't think theres much secret in the fact the regs are biassed towards A series small cars and the people who wrote them colluding with the people that prep the cars . . .clever business strategy.

for example you can't get a competitive 100E as your not allowed twin 40's and thats what was available in period and would help offset the fact that the cars heavy, although I reckon it could be done with the right budget . . . . ie a large one!

I agree PEter, mostly period available parts, with a few modern spridget bits thrown in, the one thing thats not period correct is shell prep, but that spans all the way through historic motorsport and has nothing to do with safety, a lot of these cars a radically altered under the skin

[John Turner]

That's interesting, about the 100E, Zef. Am I misreading this, then?

3.2.2.9. In the Speedwell class and for ALL cars with a capacity of over 2,000cc, only suitable period single-choke carburetors should be used – therefore twin-choke carburetors (such as those by Weber, Dellorto and others) are
prohibited. Regardless of the carburetor type employed, there should be no more than one choke for every two cylinders – i.e. a four-cylinder engine over 2,000cc may use two single-choke carburetors and a six-cylinder engine may have three single-choke carburetors. For all cars under 2,000cc, excluding the Speedwell class cars, one choke per cylinder is permitted, allowing the use of twin choke carburetors.

[zefarelly]

I read that as specifically 'DCOE webers, which are particularly well suited to the Ford head, are banned' . . . . it was one of the few cylinder heads of the era to have individual ports per cylinder and they greatly benefit from individual carburation

Ford precrossflows never did anything of any note with SU's or Strombergs

Of course the flip side of the argument is that the 100E wasn't a precrossflow engined car anyway, at least not in the 50's . . . . but then A35's didn't have 1400cc engines spridget suspension and disc brakes either . . .thats all mid 60's on.

minis and 105e Anglias are both 59 cars but aren't eligible, even in period 59 trim ( ie 850/997 . . .thats fair enough I suppose as they're more than catered for in 60's series

I suppose you could run an FJ spec precrossflow in a 100E on quadruple Amals, not that I've considered how to make one competitive or anything

[GORDON STREETER]

Of course the 107E was the last of the 100E bodies with the 105E engine, but I doubt it was ever homolagated. It also had a different front crossmember and rear axle (I've got one laying outside of my workshop).
The 1172cc 100E side-valve could be tuned and there was a lot of stuff available in period and was a better engine than its predecessor the E93A (it even had adjustable tappets !!!!)
My mate had a 100E van with a 3 speed close box that used to do about 40mph in first but was a sod to pull away on any sort of hill
And Zef I built a quick 105e Anglia in the 60s that had twin SUs. but it used to blow as much fuel back out of the carbs as it sucked in !

[johngee]

I had a 100E with, I'm sure it was called, a Handa overdrive, which effectively gave you a six speed gearbox ......and overdrive reverse! I remember it as being controlled by a 'to and fro' gear lever alongside the normal one and to go from overdrive 2nd to direct top, you pulled both levers back together.....very cool!

[Mike Bell]

If racing a 100E would you have to keep the pneumatic wipers?

[VIVA GT]

Of course, British Rallying Legend, Roger Clark's first competition vehicle was a Ford Escort Van. Not the 1968 onwards one, but the 100E version. He didn't turn out too bad did he?

[terence]

Originally Posted by johngee

I had a 100E with, I'm sure it was called, a Handa overdrive, which effectively gave you a six speed gearbox ......and overdrive reverse! I remember it as being controlled by a 'to and fro' gear lever alongside the normal one and to go from overdrive 2nd to direct top, you pulled both levers back together.....very cool!

When I started my apprentiship in 65,the w/shop forman of my uncles garage had a 100E with one of those boxes John.His name was Tom Butler,quite fanatical about anything mechanical.The car went through quite a lot of developement in my four years of working there,it started out with the Aquaplane Head/twin SUs but then graduated to the O/H/I/Valve conversion.My father also had one,but the engine was shagged when he bought it so Tom and myself transplanted a 1250 [Gosnays O/bore] Anglia engine and box,modified prop etc.Used to be fun with the Michelin X tyres on! It the got treated to some 5.5 in with Cinturatos,Anglia front Struts/Discs.I remember driving around looking for MK1 Escorts to blow off.