Group C Cut and Shuts

geeteeone · 24 Jun 2011, 15:53 (Ref:2905327)

It seems to me that a lot of Group C cars went on to have second lives as WSC, LMP or SR1 cars. Does anyone have a definitive list of those that were converted? These are the ones I can think of at the moment:

Jaguar XJR-14 = Porsche WSC95
Lola T92/10 = Lola T92/10 Spyder (and the basis for the Ascari A410?)
Porsche 962 = Kremer K7/K8 and Gunnar 966
Intrepid RM-1 = Basis of the Riley & Scott MkIII
Nissan P35 = X-250 Ferrari
Gebhardt C91 = Gebhart G4 SR1
Nissan NPTI 90 = Matrix MXP

Can anyone think of any more?

Alex Hodgkinson · 24 Jun 2011, 17:06 (Ref:2905359)

BRM P351 - BRM P301
URD C81 - URD WSC96
Grid S1 - GRID S1 (1987)

KA · 24 Jun 2011, 18:50 (Ref:2905415)

Weren't several Spice chassis modified to open-top WSC form?

Ranieri Randaccio certainly had one which appeared in some early ISRS/FIASCC races...
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-09-06-020.jpg

....and several appeared in the USA- (Dyson certainly had one, and there were quite a few others)
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-06-26-016.jpg

but were these ex-Group C/IMSA chassis modified, or new chassis?

AGD · 24 Jun 2011, 19:17 (Ref:2905432)

Brent O'Neill's Argo JM19 #113 WSC (the one from this famous crash and also one of the first IMSA WSC cars) was formerly a closed Camel Lights car.

EDIT: In fact, if you look at the crash video I posted in the above post, the purple and yellow Schader and Earl Spice-Acura Camel Lights car ended up looking like this in WSC form the very next year.

Thundersports · 24 Jun 2011, 20:45 (Ref:2905473)

http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-09-06-020.jpg
The Rollbar doesn't look very safe on this......

MulsanneMike · 25 Jun 2011, 00:11 (Ref:2905532)

Quote:

Originally Posted by geeteeone

It seems to me that a lot of Group C cars went on to have second lives as WSC, LMP or SR1 cars. Does anyone have a definitive list of those that were converted? These are the ones I can think of at the moment:

Jaguar XJR-14 = Porsche WSC95
Lola T92/10 = Lola T92/10 Spyder (and the basis for the Ascari A410?)
Porsche 962 = Kremer K7/K8 and Gunnar 966
Intrepid RM-1 = Basis of the Riley & Scott MkIII
Nissan P35 = X-250 Ferrari
Gebhardt C91 = Gebhart G4 SR1
Nissan NPTI 90 = Matrix MXP

Can anyone think of any more?

The Intrepid didn't share anything with the MkIII other than family looks (which carry through the MkIIIC, and current DP). Beyond that, nothing: carbon tub vs. steel tube frame.

The Badger · 25 Jun 2011, 06:16 (Ref:2905580)

Jaguar XJR-14 to Mazda MXR-01 to Porsche WSC95 .

rich07 · 25 Jun 2011, 06:17 (Ref:2905581)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thundersports

http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-09-06-020.jpg
The Rollbar doesn't look very safe on this......

Maybe its just me but that link doesnt work for me.

KA · 25 Jun 2011, 06:39 (Ref:2905589)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich07

Maybe its just me but that link doesnt work for me.

No, doesn't work for me either. I think it's the Randaccio Spice pic I posted the link to earlier, so try this one
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-09-06-020.jpg

KA · 25 Jun 2011, 07:00 (Ref:2905596)

This might be another one, though I'm not sure it ever raced in this form...

One of the no-shows on the entry list for the Nurburgring SRWC race in 2000 was something called a BGN APB1-Jaguar, entered by BGN Motorsport for Dieter Bergermann/TBA
http://www.racingsportscars.com/resu...9-17-6364.html
Bergermann had an ex-TWR Jaguar XJR16, (chassis 690) which he used in Interserie races,
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-08-03-007.jpg
so was the 'BGN' this car cut about into a WSC/SR1 spyder, or just the Jag engine transplanted into another chassis?
A Google search shows up a mention of Bergermann on another forum, which suggested he had two Jaguar chassis- 690 which he used in Interserie in 1995/1997, and
'He has another tub 1089(unconfirmed) that was badly damaged , but is now (1998) repaired. The roof has been removed and a spyder car is being built tocompete as per modern regulations'.

At first sight, I can't see '1089' on this list of TWR Jag chassis numbers (and don't have the book I can check against to hand...), but as the list suggests, TWR Jaguar chassis were often 'recycled' and rebuilt to later specs, and chassis numbers often changed accordingly
http://wsrp.ic.cz/chassis/chassis_jaguar.html

TWR Jaguars are a particular interest of mine, and I've got a very vague memory of seeing a pic of Bergermann's Jaguar spyder on one of the early incarnations of DSC, back when it was Sportscarworld. Can anyone shed any more light, or am I imagining this?

TheNewBob · 25 Jun 2011, 20:33 (Ref:2905978)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

TWR Jaguars are a particular interest of mine, and I've got a very vague memory of seeing a pic of Bergermann's Jaguar spyder on one of the early incarnations of DSC, back when it was Sportscarworld. Can anyone shed any more light, or am I imagining this?

Would be nice to see some of the content of websites in earlier incarnations, particularly DSC (I mean pre-2003 content).

Duff_44 · 25 Jun 2011, 21:03 (Ref:2905990)

Courage C30/C32 => Courage C34/C36
Kudzu DG-2 (IMSA) => Kudzu DG-3

And for something a little different...
Porsche 911 GT1 (1997) => Gunnar G-99

cmk · 25 Jun 2011, 22:25 (Ref:2906030)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

Would be nice to see some of the content of websites in earlier incarnations, particularly DSC (I mean pre-2003 content).

IIRC the content of DSC between its formation and the earliest stuff in the archives was lost in a catastrophic server crash. I wonder what has happened to all that totalmotorsport.com content though - I think that was what the DSC precursor was? Fond memories of their forum, which had all sorts of errata like this on it from cybersdorf and helped get me into sportscars when I was in my mid-teens.

The Badger · 25 Jun 2011, 23:14 (Ref:2906044)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duff_44

And for something a little different...
Porsche 911 GT1 (1997) => Gunnar G-99

Eh ?

Cuttlefish · 26 Jun 2011, 00:40 (Ref:2906059)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Badger

Eh ?

The Gunnar site has a great archive of the car's history. It apparently never raced in Spyder form. Built in 1999 as a spyder, shelved until 2002, roofed during winter '02-'03, ran in Grand Am GTS class in 2003.

Overview:
http://www.gunnarracing.com/project/...Story-1111.htm

Beginning with the Spyder:
http://www.gunnarracing.com/project/g99/G99-1118.htm

The Badger · 26 Jun 2011, 00:45 (Ref:2906062)

OMG ..... they certainly turned a beautiful chassis into a right abortion ..... its ****in horrible !!!!!

Sorry .......................

rich07 · 26 Jun 2011, 04:43 (Ref:2906102)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

No, doesn't work for me either. I think it's the Randaccio Spice pic I posted the link to earlier, so try this one
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-09-06-020.jpg

Thanks. I can certainly see what you said about the rollbar.

The Gunnar G-99 is certainly quite interesting and I have to say its not that bad as a spyder, the coupe is a much better looking car for sure but the spyder is certainly different and thats what appeals to me about the car.

Can you imagine a McLaren F1 GTR spyder? (personally I'd cry if someone took a hacksaw to a genuine GTR chassis but thats just me) Or possibly a Mercedes CLK GTR or a Toyota GT-One without a roof?

Too bad it never raced in that form before it was converted back.

KA · 26 Jun 2011, 09:18 (Ref:2906168)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich07

Can you imagine a McLaren F1 GTR spyder? (personally I'd cry if someone took a hacksaw to a genuine GTR chassis but thats just me) Or possibly a Mercedes CLK GTR or a Toyota GT-One without a roof?

Too bad it never raced in that form before it was converted back.

There's no need to imagine the Merc- the production run of 25 or so road versions included half-a-dozen roadsters...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...LK-GTR_AMG.jpg

**Aysedasi** · 26 Jun 2011, 10:54 (Ref:2906217)

I like that!

fausto · 26 Jun 2011, 17:01 (Ref:2906435)

Oliver Kuttner raced an open-top WSC version of the Argo JM16/Royale RP40, called Pegasus http://www.flickr.com/photos/ury914/4120456823/

**Adam43** · 26 Jun 2011, 19:14 (Ref:2906508)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I like that!

There is one on display in Mercedes-Benz World at Brooklands at the moment if you're interested.

Thundersports · 26 Jun 2011, 22:02 (Ref:2906575)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

No, doesn't work for me either. I think it's the Randaccio Spice pic I posted the link to earlier, so try this one
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-09-06-020.jpg

Thanks KA

geeteeone · 27 Jun 2011, 10:13 (Ref:2906739)

Regarding the Gunnar G-99 - technically the G-99 wasn't actually a converted Porsche 911 GT1 chassis - it was built as a tube frame GT1 'clone', using a jig and moulds that Gunnar had from their previous involvement with the Champion Racing 911 GT1.

AFAIK it's basically the suspension from a 911 GT1, bolted to a tube frame chassis rather than a 911 steel chassis, with a normally aspirated 996 GT3-RS engine in the back. According to the Gunnar site, the bonnet cover is a genuine 911 GT1 item though!

geeteeone · 27 Jun 2011, 10:18 (Ref:2906743)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

TWR Jaguars are a particular interest of mine, and I've got a very vague memory of seeing a pic of Bergermann's Jaguar spyder on one of the early incarnations of DSC, back when it was Sportscarworld. Can anyone shed any more light, or am I imagining this?

Is this it?

http://jaguarracing.xf.cz/2009/05/bgn-jaguar-apb-1/

eddsc · 29 Jun 2011, 04:24 (Ref:2907729)

Re old DSC stuff, it was the first year of DSC that was lost - because we'd been promised that it was all backed up, but it wasn't. Prior to that, sportscarworld went west when I lost the domain to a Texan, but I've still got old hard drives here... I'll make an effort to find out what's on them.
Incidentally, that Texan died last year...

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