Parting of the Ways?

[old man]

LeMans.pt, I think you have forgotten our North American friends but they could have the 12 hour race that you propose at Sebring as I am quite sure you are dreaming about the Nordschliefe! .

However that may have to include the GT class to keep the American interest on board so you could add that special 12 hour event to your 24 hour races where the Nurburgring is not really established at this level as yet

We appear to be reaching a concensus on the single GT class in general

[dj4monie]

Well Old Man, this is how I see it -

This is GT2 version 2 were in now.

In GT2 version 1 they weren't much different than they are now!

GT1 is what has changed, they went from being related to road cars to being "racing specials" and then back to being based on road cars again.

As Ratel states no new cars are being produced, thats not to say Prodrive wouldn't build another car if requested, I am sure they have enough parts around to build several cars if they wished.

But that is currently the only commercially available GT1 car besides the Saleen S7R.

Prodrive is now focusing on the DBR9GT3, Vantage GT2 and Vantage N24

Saleen hasn't announced any future updates to the S7R and Oreca has stopped direct development of the S7R, but is more than happy to build you a car if requested.

All other national series are moving away from GT1's if they haven't already.

Brit GT, BelCar, VLN, GT Masters and I think Spanish and Italian GT are not running GT1 cars this season and French GT is looking to phase them out by next season.

As much as I would hate to see it, the writing is on the wall for GT1 with small fields in LMS and ALMS and only 11-12 full season entries for the FIA GT, I think its time to close the book on great chapter of GT racing history. The cars were and still are great to look at, fun to watch, fun to listen too and pretty darn fast.

Did we REALLY need two GT classes at Le Mans?
]
Well not really, I think it was stop gap measure by the ACO and that's fine. With renewed interest in prototypes from manufacturers, I think we'll be fine with a solid gap in performance between GT cars and LMP cars, as the GT2 cars are approaching that sub 4 min lap threshold too.

I think we are finally returning that "perfect" storm in GT racing we enjoyed in the "glory days" when you could BUY a GT car and be competitive or develop one for a reasonable cost and if you really wanted to go fast you bought a prototype or if your team was really good and showed brand loyalty you got bumped to semi-works status or full works/factory status.

GT2/GT3/GT4 is something companies can get behind and sell for a profit without having specific sets of rules all over the place that complicate things.

Porsche, Ferrari and Ford build cars right on the line that can be raced in any country because we have uniform rules.

Now if we can only kill Grand Am here, their rules are out of touch and out of left field.

The Koni Challenge uses GT4 style cars, only a few minor things need to be changed in a Koni Challenge car to make it legal for say Brit GT,BelCar, French GT, VLN, GT Masters or European GT4 Championship.

I think IMSA should take that back, it used to be their series until the split between USRRC and ALMS.

This would foster TRUE International Competition!

Every series has its "Super Bowl"

FIA GT - Spa 24 and Le Mans

European GT4 - Nürburgring 24

LMS/ALMS/Asia-Pacific - Le Mans

ALMS - 12 of Sebring

On the International stage, yeah 1 GT class is fine with me...

[Tim the Grey]

I grew up with Porsche 917s and Ferrari 512s (of various types)...
I love a howling 12. Flat or Vee, no never mind...

This is one reason I adore the Murcielago. The echo back to La Source as it belted over the crest at Raidillon was spine chilling, and VERY 917 like.

Yes, I like Protos, so long as they are playing on the same level field!

Me? I'd have 2 classes at LM. LMP, and GT.
LMP1 type entries ballasted/restricted however you like, to slow them to LMP2 type speeds. Leave LMP2 alone. Let the team decide if they want a heavy quick thing, or a nimble slower thing... Option to adjust retained by ACO throughout the season, to avoid the Audi/Peugeot style dominance. Keep them in the ballpark!

Maybe make LMP1 the 'closed' route, LMP2 to be open cockpit. Mebbe even remove second seat from LMP2 regs?

[broadrun96]

There seems to be a lot of common ground here so far, let me try to boil it down to see if we can agree that worldwide competition is the key here.

Protos--both classes seem to be agreed on at least, with some involvement of LMP3 types. Thinking if ACO wants to build a fan base by taking the ALMS support race route it could be done with some sprint type races within a more enduro heavy schedule. Even running LMP3s and GT class together as a support race and saying, 'hey if you liked that, come see the bigger cars run in 2 weeks' Could split P1/P2 with open vs closed; or bring back the interclass competition with one 4 cylinder turbos or 6 NA with lower weight, vs bigger and heavier cars (both turbo and NA); or street engines vs looser rules on race only equipment.

GTs--one class seems to be the biggest choice here, and as a fan of the Vette/AM off-on battle the last few I couldnt see them leaving. Balancing the various styles by weight/displacement scales would make it easier for Vettes to not out-torque smaller 4 or 6 cylinders. I think at the least the ALMS and maybe JLMS/PLMS would need to keep the GTs, but a single class could bring on the battles it seems most want to see. Imagine Ferrari, Porsche, Chevy, AM, Lambo with possibly Nissan, Toyota/Lexus, Ford, MB coming in for a challenge as well.

With a new system, the possibility that GA racing could find a connection with maybe the LMP3s and GT2/3s, if it would cost about the same as the DPs, and bring a worldwide series together with the various "classic" stops on the schedule. It could lead to a reduced individual series schedule to allow the top teams, or at least those into the world title, to go from FIA, ALMS/GA, LMS, LM, PLMS events with their various race lengths. Each series could also have a varying breakdown of Proto vs GTs to meet their series goals. Would be a good challenge to how the teams function and adapt. But hey thats just me, love the 24 hour events, but also like to see some all out sprints to see if the little guy can throw caution to the wind and use up their car keeping up with the big teams. It would also involve some serious commitment from manufacturers and the various series bosses to find a common ground.

[dj4monie]

The problem -

ALMS has a different rules package than Grand Am, yet GA access some famous and classic race tracks (The Glen for example). There is also the illusion that you actually have a chance to win in Grand Am since your not competing vs cubic dollars. That's just not the case because 9 times out of 10 in GA, the best prepared and financed team wins most often.

Also people trying to be "different" without any help from the OEM puts them at a disadvantage. If anything GA should be very much like NASCAR Sprint Cup in the fact that, using the most popular chassis (Riley) with the most popular power plants supported by the manufactures (Toyota, GM and Ford) means you can't blame loosing on your equipment as the teams that win most often have that chassis and one of those engines powering it.

There are basically no differences between FIA GT and the LMS save that prototypes are in the LMS series which doesn't effect his series at all. The one advantage of running LMS, is you get auto invites for winning your class at the end of the season.

By adding a LMP3 class, they can take away the GT cars in the series, but allow them at the 24 hour race. That would allow Ratel to keep his series, get World Championship status and keeps his series based on GT cars which is his passion.

Teams/Owners looking for automatic entry into the 24 hours will run LMS. Those that want to run not only FIA GT but Spanish GT, GT Master, French GT or Brit GT would opt for the FIA series whenever there's an off weekend.

Its much easier to solve the conflicts in Europe than it is here.

In North America, you would have to sit down with Grand Am officials and hammer out something. Those that run the lower classes, would be more inclined to be able to move freely between series.

The rub comes from those that run DP's don't wanna face the next manufacture that decides to use LMP2 as a stepping stone/education before moving up to LMP1. Frankly I don't have a problem with that, a majority of fans of the ALMS share that with me. As long as these companies don't create a "vacuum" when they leave LMP2, I think it would be good to say award some new teams with the chance to continue running Acura LMP2 cars and Porsche semi-works efforts. Lola can be competitive when paired with the right powerplant and team.

Plus there's a reason GA used the likes of Riley Technologies and Crawford Race Cars, they want to keep American based companies involved and keep them viable. I say they would be viable if they wanted to be. Lola has a 20-25 year head start and has advantages in building not only GTP cars, but also CART/Champ Cars and Formula One cars and WINNING with all of them.

Riley has managed to win Daytona but proven very marginal as builders of the first Caddies and cars other teams used at Le Mans which requires low drag body work and of course wind tunnel time to sort that out, adding expense to the cars development.

Grand Am won't give that up without a fight or a concession from ALMS, which I don't believe ALMS has to do because they are in a position of power.

The only thing that will happen and it might take as long as the IRL/CART split took and that's for the other one to grow so week its taken over and assets purchased.

That would render Prep 2 GT's and DP's useless like the merger between IRL and Champ Car has rendered the Panoz DP1's museum pieces.

I think we need to rely on defections like Tafel's instead of forcing teams to make a choice, just keep proving that the ALMS is the better series and the more relevant series when compared directly.

I think we are a few more years away from a completely NEW DAY in GT/Prototype racing with series that work TOGETHER than against each other and pitting fans against each other which is not ultimately healthy for the sport.

[FIRE]

I think the GT1 cars will disappear in a few years time. With the arrival of the new Riley Corvette and Prodrive Aston Martin there's a future for GT2 class. So when the GT1 cars have moved in the hands of rich collectors I hope we get this:

• Le Mans/LMS/ALMS: LMP1, LMP2, GT2
• FIA GT: GT2 (GT3 in FIA GT3 series)
• National GT series: GT3, GT4

GT Open has switched to GT2 and GT3 for this season.

[old man]

Interesting that Autosport have concentrated on GT2 in their FIA Season Preview this week with more coverage by Gary Watkins on that class than I can ever remember. Whilst GT1 will still win the "Race" the growing interest in GT2 is relflected and they are to be congratulated on the piece. I hope they report the race on equal class by class basis now

It may just be that someone reads what we say here!?

[deggis]

Q&A with Stephane Ratel:

part 1
part 2
part 3

Google translated from endurance-info.com, so it is barely readable but very interesting stuff. Like possibly introducing 2x1h race format in the future (doh!) and he seems very confident that 2009 will be the last year of today's GT1 cars.

[FIRE]

IMO the current 2h race format is very good. So why change it? For TV channels 2 races are more difficult to cover live (1 of the reasons why DTM has 1 race instead of 2 sprint races).

[dj choc ice]

all i want is straight pipes back in the lemans series on the cars, because they sounded so much better and the atmosphere is a lot better, hearing a unsilenced zytek screaming down spectator hill is astonishing or hearing a unsilenced DBR9 or F430 blasting down the hangar straight is incredible.

with silencers you dont get that, you still get a good noise, but a muted and restrained noise, the zyteks and DBR9's and F430's silenced sound crap compared to their unsilenced bretheren.

[deggis]

But what are the possibilities that the noise levels (currently 113 dB @ 15 m from the track, in FIA GT and LMS) gets removed from the regs... I guess no name celebrities are more important (so that they can drink their martinis without earplugs) than fans.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by deggis

Q&A with Stephane Ratel:

part 1
part 2
part 3

Google translated from endurance-info.com, so it is barely readable but very interesting stuff. Like possibly introducing 2x1h race format in the future (doh!) and he seems very confident that 2009 will be the last year of today's GT1 cars.

I welcome FIA GT's 2 x1hr races, it distinguishes the series from the LMS even more. If they believe they can compete with the DTM and WTCC, good on 'em.

But don't bring in another GT1 class unless it has significant backing from manufactuers and the ACO.

[duke_toaster]

Here's my idea for a structure.

Le Mans Europe Tour : Five 2 hour races, 4 1000km races and LM24 . LMP1, LMP2 and GT2.
ALMS : LMP1, LMP2 and GT2.
Le Mans Pacific Tour : 300-500km races, LMP1, LMP2 and GT2. Showpiece event is a new Macau 1000km (OK, that might be a bit of a silly venue).

Le Mans World Series : The World Championship of sportscar racing. LM24, Sebring 12h and Macau 1000km.
Le Mans Festival : Knockout LMP3/LMP4/GT3/GT4 tournament held on weekend before LM24. Two hour final.

A ranking system calculates places for LM24, Sebring and Macau.

National Series can run GT3, GT4, LMP3 (current VdeV and other similar cars) and LMP4 (slower VdeV and similar). They go to the LMFestival.

JGTC can have their cars knobbled by restrictors and removing of aero parts for a few years to keep them on a par with GT2 and then they can be got rid of (like BTCC is now with the BTC-T cars). GrandAm can go die in a hole, or if I'm feeling nice have the DPs run as LMP2s and the GTs as GT3s.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by deggis

But what are the possibilities that the noise levels (currently 113 dB @ 15 m from the track, in FIA GT and LMS) gets removed from the regs... I guess no name celebrities are more important (so that they can drink their martinis without earplugs) than fans.

because people should be allowed to decide, giving out free cheap earplugs at the gate for the meeting gives people the choice to hear the cars in their full glory or to wear earplugs and have a still exciting yet quieter experience, forcing this silencing crap on us is fascist and from what ive seen so far hasnt been well received, look at the ALMS thread not too long ago and it was very badly received, the idea of putting silencers on the ALMS cars.

duke i like the idea's youve put across it seems to work but with the JGTC cars that is silly, killing off a perfectly healthy and japans biggest motorsport championship is about as viable as enforcing a ban on cars and motorbikes, grandAM i have a feeling may die in a hole of its own will soon enough, it doesnt from what ive heard and read get good fan figures compared to the ALMS, which partially is a shame, although the cars are rubbish and ugly as sin, the racing is good ill give it that and the championship has spawned some very good drivers.

i like the idea of the lemans world series, that seems very good, the lemans festival seems like a good idea as well for the smaller teams and would act as a great support at say lemans 24 hours and sebring, the LMP3/LMP4/GT3 and GT4 cars racing all at the same time is a good idea, say incentive for the winner of each class is a sponsor package, a heap of prize money and a load of help graduating into the euro series?

with regards to the FIA GT having 2 1 hour races, im not sold on that one, seems a bit pointless really, 2 hours flew in 2007 and 2008 at silverstone, it would be nice to go back to the old 3 hour 500km format, but thats my take on things. I just hope stephane ratel keeps the FIA GT cars unsilenced and knows what he's doing, he seems so far to be doing a pretty good job with the FIA GT as a whole and the FIA GT3 so good on him.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

because people should be allowed to decide, giving out free cheap earplugs at the gate for the meeting gives people the choice to hear the cars in their full glory or to wear earplugs and have a still exciting yet quieter experience, forcing this silencing crap on us is fascist and from what ive seen so far hasnt been well received, look at the ALMS thread not too long ago and it was very badly received, the idea of putting silencers on the ALMS cars.

Of course I'd want the noise levels removed too but my point was that now that the noise levels have been enforced, odds for removing it suddenly are quite small imho.

I just hope stephane ratel keeps the FIA GT cars unsilenced and knows what he's doing

Maybe you meant in future but if not, FIA GT cars are silenced too. Same 113 dB level than in ACO regs.

[duke_toaster]

Aren't silencers more of a greenie thing ...

[dj choc ice]

they are more of a greenie nimby thing, giving the impression of being PC and green, when theres nothing green about silencers to my knowledge at a race track were cars raced unsilenced for a very very long time before all this enviro fascism started and motorsport and the auto industry is now treated as a pseudo anti christ and an easy target by more and more sects of society.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Me? I'd have 2 classes at LM. LMP, and GT.
LMP1 type entries ballasted/restricted however you like, to slow them to LMP2 type speeds. Leave LMP2 alone. Let the team decide if they want a heavy quick thing, or a nimble slower thing... Option to adjust retained by ACO throughout the season, to avoid the Audi/Peugeot style dominance. Keep them in the ballpark!

So, you're a big ALMS fan?

[dj4monie]

Sorry but mufflers are here to stay they make more torque with them on than with them off, they'll say the teams will even keep them if the noise limit is lifted, trust me.

I found this comment by Ratel very telling -

We play the card of greater professionalism and understand that some teams no longer take refuge at a less prestigious series. The old adage remains valid: A win without risk is the triumph without glory…

This is a pro-ALMS/LMS broad so no need to really say it but a certain GT2 Porsche factory supported team wanted to leave ALMS to compete for overall wins, when they got snubbed by Porsche to run the Spyders... They went to Grand Am and just HOW many overall victories does the "Ruby Tuesday" car actually have?

ONE!

3 seasons, 1 victory....hmm and say what again about competing for overall victory?

They finished 7th at VIR and who won? I don't think I have to tell you...

I watched the Mexico race and saw some pretty standard armature hour moves, especially the one that took out the SunTrust car.

8 caution flags at Homsted and THIS is better racing as told by the 8 people that watch it???

Isn't there a weekly 5 min rant bout Grand Am on Mid Week Motorsports....?

Well anyway, Grand AM will just have to die, its really not in the way, but until it dies, I don't think we'll see LMS size fields here.

But until then we can streamline the process between LMS/ALMS/Asia-Pacific and FIA GT

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Sorry but mufflers are here to stay they make more torque with them on than with them off, they'll say the teams will even keep them if the noise limit is lifted, trust me.

I found this comment by Ratel very telling -



This is a pro-ALMS/LMS broad so no need to really say it but a certain GT2 Porsche factory supported team wanted to leave ALMS to compete for overall wins, when they got snubbed by Porsche to run the Spyders... They went to Grand Am and just HOW many overall victories does the "Ruby Tuesday" car actually have?

ONE!

3 seasons, 1 victory....hmm and say what again about competing for overall victory?

It's three wins for AJR: Homestead 06, VIR 06, Laguna 07. At least get your facts right.