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Old 14 Nov 2017, 00:54 (Ref:3780318)   #136
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Originally Posted by MGDavid View Post
Clark died at the same age as Lewis is now - but achieved numerically far less in his years at the pinnacle (F1).
Moss was also the same age when the accident ended his career, but again achieved far less in those years at F1 level.
Stewart had the benefit of an extra couple of years on career length but still can't match the WDCs and poles etc. Also I never liked his affectation of the tartan, a quite unecessary distraction.
As for the rest one might not want to hold up Hawthorn, Hill or Hunt as perfect examples of the British gentleman, what with all the drinking, shagging and road-racing they got up to.
And wasn't Our Nige one of the more famous Isle of Man & Jersey resident tax-avoiders?
But I do appreciate that for some they will have been boyhood heroes and therefore beyond reproach.
Regarding Clark, Moss and Stewart, achieving numerically far less in their years in F1 compared to Hamilton, that's surely down to fewer races per season, therefore less opportunity. In the late '50s and early '60s, when Moss and Clark were racing, there were roughly 8 to 9 races. When Stewart was racing it was more or less 11. In 2007, Hamilton's first season it was 17 and now it's 20.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 01:49 (Ref:3780319)   #137
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But I do appreciate that for some they will have been boyhood heroes and therefore beyond reproach.
quite...

getting really bored of every thread descending into the same argument wearing a different outfit. cmon guys, you're better than this.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 02:01 (Ref:3780320)   #138
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Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Who in the blue hell is Brise. Going go by those stats he's the greatest Brit qualifier of all time.

I think it's a bit hard to just compare straight stats. While Hamilton may not have the best qualy comparison, he's also had some great team mates with Alonso, Button, Rosberg all champions themselves.

I do think however that the competition in F1 today is very strong. The way Hamilton usually performs at his best consistently and usually beats top team mates I feel he's one of the best. I think if you asked Jackie Stewart if he could beat Hamilton in his prime, he'd probably say no. Same with many of those brits. Nig might not admit it.

I think Jim Clark probably the obvious guy you'd put ahead of Hamilton. Some might say Moss, but it's just a different era. The rest not sure.

Take a look over Jim Clark's team mates at Lotus, they're mostly complete nobodies. He had a couple of races with John Surtees and then nobodies that never won a single GP until Graham Hill joined Lotus in Jim's final full year before his death. So that rules Jim out of the qualifying head to head completely. Looking at Hunt since he's high on the list... first 3 seasons a 1 car team. Next season nobody team mates. Next 2 seasons Jochen Mass (ho hum), Patrick Tambay, then he retired. So Hunts not relevant.

So yeah head to head quali is skewed with some of the older eras where driver talent probably isn't what it is today throughout the field. Many teams only had 1 main good driver because they couldn't afford 2 or 3. Nowadays the top teams can all afford 2 of the best. Still interesting stats though.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 02:13 (Ref:3780321)   #139
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Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Who in the blue hell is Brise. Going go by those stats he's the greatest Brit qualifier of all time.

I think it's a bit hard to just compare straight stats. While Hamilton may not have the best qualy comparison, he's also had some great team mates with Alonso, Button, Rosberg all champions themselves.

I do think however that the competition in F1 today is very strong. The way Hamilton usually performs at his best consistently and usually beats top team mates I feel he's one of the best. I think if you asked Jackie Stewart if he could beat Hamilton in his prime, he'd probably say no. Same with many of those brits. Nig might not admit it.

I think Jim Clark probably the obvious guy you'd put ahead of Hamilton. Some might say Moss, but it's just a different era. The rest not sure.

Take a look over Jim Clark's team mates at Lotus, they're mostly complete nobodies. He had a couple of races with John Surtees and then nobodies that never won a single GP until Graham Hill joined Lotus in Jim's final full year before his death. So that rules Jim out of the qualifying head to head completely. Looking at Hunt since he's high on the list... first 3 seasons a 1 car team. Next season nobody team mates. Next 2 seasons Jochen Mass (ho hum), Patrick Tambay, then he retired. So Hunts not relevant.

So yeah head to head quali is skewed with some of the older eras where driver talent probably isn't what it is today throughout the field. Many teams only had 1 main good driver because they couldn't afford 2 or 3. Nowadays the top teams can all afford 2 of the best. Still interesting stats though.
I presume Tony Brise, who drove for Embassy Racing With Graham Hill, Graham Hill's team in 1975. He was killed along with Graham Hill in a plane crash as the pilot attempted to land at Elstree Airfield in thick fog at night.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 08:02 (Ref:3780349)   #140
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Tony Brise's team mate was a 40-something former WDC and it was only a handful of races. Jackie Stewart's were very good #2 drivers.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

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Old 14 Nov 2017, 08:36 (Ref:3780352)   #141
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think he will fall in the top level of British champions but will never be considered above them. Only figures will decide that.

I rate his first title as his best, the rest have been achieved in a massively dominant car, much like all of Vettel's and Schumacher's.

And for a few of those years he was closely challenged by a team-mate who not only got under his skin eventually but worked out a way to beat him and did it. But not a man who many would consider a massive talent who should have been winning titles for years.

He has no charisma, unlike Vettel who though a tool in the car is funny and engaging out of it. I compare tLewis o MS really, a guy who was remarkably good at his job. The difference is that Michael made no effort to be anything out of the car, Lewis tried to force it for some reason, and for some it works, but for most we see through it. At least he tries, but the trying to put his arm around Rosberg that time, that kind of stuff, it is just smarm and very, very fake. He will win countless titles, races and records but will not be remember with the same fondness as guys who won far less.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 08:47 (Ref:3780353)   #142
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Originally Posted by midgetman View Post
Tony Brise's team mate was a 40-something former WDC and it was only a handful of races. Jackie Stewart's were very good #2 drivers.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

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Brise never qualified against Hill.
His team mates were Alan Jones 4 - 0, Rolf Stommelen2 - 0, Francois Migault 1 - 0, Merzario 1 - 0, and Verne Schuppan 1 -0.

Hill took one look at Brise's testing times and decided his own services were no longer required as a driver.

Stommelen out qualified Hill 4 - 0 in 1974.

Last edited by wnut; 14 Nov 2017 at 08:53.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 09:09 (Ref:3780356)   #143
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And wasn't Our Nige one of the more famous Isle of Man & Jersey resident tax-avoiders?
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You want to go there?
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 10:28 (Ref:3780365)   #144
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
I presume Tony Brise, who drove for Embassy Racing With Graham Hill, Graham Hill's team in 1975. He was killed along with Graham Hill in a plane crash as the pilot attempted to land at Elstree Airfield in thick fog at night.
#

Graham was the pilot which made it even more tragic.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 10:50 (Ref:3780367)   #145
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#

Graham was the pilot which made it even more tragic.
So he was, that slipped my mind. Very tragic.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 13:02 (Ref:3780377)   #146
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You want to go there?
not particularly, just reminding that it's always been that way. I don't disagree with it, and I certainly don't think Lewis should be pilloried for it - I'd do it myself if I had enough to make it worthwhile
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 13:07 (Ref:3780379)   #147
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Brise never qualified against Hill.
His team mates were Alan Jones 4 - 0, Rolf Stommelen2 - 0, Francois Migault 1 - 0, Merzario 1 - 0, and Verne Schuppan 1 -0.

Hill took one look at Brise's testing times and decided his own services were no longer required as a driver.

Stommelen out qualified Hill 4 - 0 in 1974.
Fair enough I stand corrected. But let's be fair, my point still stands. Apart from AJ, those drivers hardly set the world alight.

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Old 14 Nov 2017, 18:17 (Ref:3780432)   #148
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quite...

getting really bored of every thread descending into the same argument wearing a different outfit. cmon guys, you're better than this.
Here here say I (suppressing a yawn......).
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 19:50 (Ref:3780446)   #149
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quite...

getting really bored of every thread descending into the same argument wearing a different outfit. cmon guys, you're better than this.
It seems not.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 22:13 (Ref:3780477)   #150
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Got beaten by Rosberg last year. Lewis is alright but getting beaten by his team mates on a regular basis doesn't warrant my top 10 fastest drivers ever.
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