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Old 13 Nov 2017, 21:41 (Ref:3780296)   #286
crmalcolm
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crmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
CR Until ...

Brazil

Vettel Winner 7th fastest lap 1:12.539 Kimi 1:12.492

Mexico

Hamilton Winner 5th fastest lap 1:19.945 Bottas 1:19.374

USA

Hamilton Winner 5th Fastest lap 1:38.776 Bottas 1:37.767



By the above logic Bottas and Kimi are faster than their team mates.
Except Verstappen was setting his fastest laps whilst also finishing ahead of his teammate.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 22:08 (Ref:3780302)   #287
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Except Verstappen was setting his fastest laps whilst also finishing ahead of his teammate.
.. and running a different spec PU, and not taking a bunch of grid penalties.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 00:08 (Ref:3780316)   #288
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P.S. Ricciardo's qualifying record against Max this year is of far more concern than the fastest race laps.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 19:33 (Ref:3780445)   #289
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Figured it'd be more useful to compare the races that they both finished. Quick scan

Finished ahead of team mate
Riccardo: 2 (Monaco, Monza)
Verstappen: 5 (China, UK, Malaysia, Japan, Brazil)

Average finishing position (disregarding DNFs)
Riccardo: 3.43
Verstappen: 4.1

Average finishing position with 1 dropped score (disregarding DNFs)
Riccardo: 3.23
Verstappen: 3.64

Average grid position
Riccardo: 8.05
Verstappen: 6.22

I did the single dropped score to account for a single bad race that is outwith a drivers normal performance - Brazil was the worst for Riccardo, whilst Monza was the worst for Verstappen. When things go right for Verstappen, they REALLY go right. Starts higher and when both cars have finished, he's beaten Riccardo 5 times out of 7. Even if you discount Brazil due to different equipment, that's 4-2. He has 2 wins to Riccardos 1 as well.

Other than clinging to points, I'm not seeing a huge argument for Riccardo being the #1 driver here. Verstappen qualifies better, and when both cars finish, he's ahead.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 20:16 (Ref:3780450)   #290
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P.S. Ricciardo's qualifying record against Max this year is of far more concern than the fastest race laps.
Er, why?

The simple fact is that we've seen in the last few races where the balance of power (and the future) lies. You can't deny what you see with your own eyes......

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Other than clinging to points, I'm not seeing a huge argument for Riccardo being the #1 driver here. Verstappen qualifies better, and when both cars finish, he's ahead.
Yep, as I say, that's what most of us are seeing.......
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 08:59 (Ref:3780529)   #291
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Er, why?

The simple fact is that we've seen in the last few races where the balance of power (and the future) lies. You can't deny what you see with your own eyes......
Because if Ricciardo does not improve his qualifying then he will play second fiddle to Max.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 19:23 (Ref:3780611)   #292
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Gotcha. Somehow I read that the other way around.........
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Old 17 Nov 2017, 05:09 (Ref:3780888)   #293
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As much as I am a fan of Ricciardo, Verstappen is obviously something very special. Its also interesting to see that Sainz is giving the Hulk a bit of a touch up in the Renault as well.

Verstappen had most of his misfortune at the start of the year when the car was not great, Ricciardo has had his at the later part of the season where i think the car is much better. Not an excuse, just an observation. He will need to pull his finger out next year.

I think the Hamilton quote RE Ricciardo beating Verstappen is interesting unto itself and could be a bit of ensuring reputation remains intact. If Ricciardo struggles against Verstappen (and I dont think he does when you compare Bottas and Hamilton by comparison) but can hang with / beat Hamilton regularly - then where does that leave Hamilton in the order of things?

In looking for a new contract, Ricciardo is somewhat a victim of his own success. Hes good enough for a top flight seat, hes better than a number 2 but not perhaps in the alien space of Verstappen. IMHO he would handle Vettel rather handily (Raikkonen is not far off at the twilight of his career) and would be a close match for Hamilton.

I think hes doing the right hting by hanging back on his contract at his stage of his career as if Red Bull end up with a Honda( and after Brazil with Toro Rosso - i dont think that helped at all), id say that the Renault fall out from a couple of years ago will be light entertainment by comparison.
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Old 17 Nov 2017, 05:31 (Ref:3780891)   #294
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This is a bring the popcorn and watch thread.
I am Australian and the argument seems to be split along the lines of Australians for Dan and the rest of the world for Max.
An objective measure would be that Red Bull seem to be talking about offering Dan about 20% of what Max will be getting in his new contract.In the first half of 2018 he is going to have to match Max in the qualifying battle as well as race results to get that Mercedes or Ferrari drive.
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Old 17 Nov 2017, 06:31 (Ref:3780895)   #295
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stop doing it then.
everybody but you knows that Max would have had more points than Daniel if he did not have all that bad luck earlier in the season.

but keep on entertaining us with your nonsense................
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Old 17 Nov 2017, 06:59 (Ref:3780899)   #296
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crmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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since team mates:

2016 - Daniel defeats Max in points
2017 - Daniel defeats Max in points


Daniel - 406 points
Max - 349 points

Max too slow.
Here's where I am getting so confused with your argument:

You keep rattling off the line points, points, points, and using this to demonstrate that Max is slow.
But points are not a reflection of speed. Lap Times will show you the speed of a driver on the track in race conditions. In this measure, Max is destroying Daniel.

If Max is too slow, he is still the quickest driver in a Red Bull. So no wonder Daniel is waiting to decide his future.

Stay at Red Bull, Daniel is No.2 driver and will get beaten by Max.
Move to Mercedes, get beaten by Lewis.
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Old 17 Nov 2017, 07:18 (Ref:3780902)   #297
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post

You keep rattling off the line points, points, points, and using this to demonstrate that Max is slow.
But points are not a reflection of speed. Lap Times will show you the speed of a driver on the track in race conditions. In this measure, Max is destroying Daniel.
yet points are what is used to determine the WDC and the WCC, not overall lap time.
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Old 17 Nov 2017, 07:44 (Ref:3780907)   #298
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Max needs to learn not to run into people, until he does so he will not beat Ricciardo over a season. I think there are also a few people who he will find a lot tougher to race against when they are not in contention for a title. What goes around comes around, and Max has got away with quite a bit this year, he won't be able to stick the nose of his car into a fifty fifty and expect to get away with it.

"That kid is dangerous, it wasn't worth it." Lewis

Will change rapidly.
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Old 17 Nov 2017, 07:46 (Ref:3780908)   #299
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Go Harder. should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by steve nielsen View Post
everybody but you knows that Max would have had more points than Daniel if he did not have all that bad luck earlier in the season.

but keep on entertaining us with your nonsense................
There is an F1 sliding doors thread somewhere for what ifs...
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Old 17 Nov 2017, 08:05 (Ref:3780909)   #300
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crmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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yet points are what is used to determine the WDC and the WCC, not overall lap time.
And that is where the truth lies:

Daniel is outscoring Max.
Max is quicker than Daniel.

RBR know that once they give Max a reliable car, he is the best chance of a WDC as he is the quicker driver.
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