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Old 2 Jul 2007, 00:18 (Ref:1951910)   #46
sssssssss
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sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
so the r10 only reached 326 km/h and was that fast in 2006 (3:30.466)... that means it went on truly high downforce... i'm surprised to see that there were cars exceeding the r10's top speeds...i guess audi were a lot more relaxed in 2006 than in 2007, when the competition of peugeot made them go faster, as no other car in the field went as fast as audi did (339 km/h) except for peugeot's 339 km/h. i remember the r8 went 330 km/h in 2002... some say the r8 even reached 337 km/h on the mulsanne-indianapolis sector... but true, in its first year, 2000, as 2006 would be for the r10, the r8 only reached 325 km/h...

although the lap times are just about the same as always, i kinda feel nostalgic about the days of the toyota gt-one (352 km/h in practice 1999), audi r8c (349 km/h) and r8r (335 km/h), mercedes clr (349 km/h)... that 1999 race was great in that respect.

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Old 2 Jul 2007, 00:56 (Ref:1951924)   #47
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Is the speed trap before the first chicane on the Mulsanne or before the kink leading to Indianapolis? I'd suspect, the latter location might deliver higher numbers, though obviously, I can't be sure of that right now.
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Old 2 Jul 2007, 09:12 (Ref:1952042)   #48
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sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
as far as i know the trap is traditionally set at the end of the first part of the mulsanne straight. and if last years, we might have been in doubt wether the mulsanne-indianapolis section is faster than that or not, i think from 2007 on its obvious again that the first part of the mulsanne is the fastest part of the course, as tetre rouge was heavily modified.

also, i think (but i might be wrong) that the different speeds for each car are caught at different points of the track. if anybody has a more determined position concerning that, i'd be glad to see it i think it's mulsanne pt.1, mulsanne pt.2, mulsanne pt.3, mulsanne-indianapolis and the last speed would probably be just before entering the porsche curves.
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Old 2 Jul 2007, 09:12 (Ref:1952043)   #49
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sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
and if the second speed is from just before the 2nd mulsanne chicane, it's obvious that the audis and the peugeots could have gone quicker than 339 km/h, because even the previous years, the difference between the first part of the mulsanne and the second was more than 1 km/h (), and now it'd be even a greater difference as, like we mentioned already, tetre rouge was modified to provide more speed on mulsanne pt.1. so if the audi went 338 km/h on the second part of the mulsanne, i think it's obvious it could have gone quicker than 339 km/h on the first. of course, if it isn't restricted to about 340 km/h... and i doubt it is.

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Old 2 Jul 2007, 13:53 (Ref:1952273)   #50
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dj choc ice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the griddj choc ice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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the peugeot 905 went 351 km/h on the mulsanne straight in 1992 in practice, but seemingley under 335 km/h in the race (i'm not sure about this second fact). in 1993 it reached 346 km/h in the race, dk about practice...
under 335kmph in the race because the 1992 lemans was afflicted with heavy rain and for the entire race the track was wet, this affected the cornering speeds and straight line speed's significantly.
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Old 2 Jul 2007, 17:54 (Ref:1952556)   #51
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yes that's true. i forgot about it but yes - i saw the video on youtube - it was raining more heavily in 1992 than in 2007. it seems peugeot are bound to attract heavy rain at le mans, doesn't it? )

anyway, one thing to remember is that in 1992, the fastest cars, which went 335 km/h and 334 km/h respectively (in the race) were the toyotas... i don't know about the peugeots, but i know these 2 were the fastest speeds of the 1992 race. but in practice nobody had the 905 beaten, at 351 km/h.

still, in 1993, the porsches went 20 km/h faster than the peugeot 905 (!!!) - that was 366 km/h for the 962 against 346 km/h for the pugs.
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Old 2 Jul 2007, 18:56 (Ref:1952607)   #52
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still, in 1993, the porsches went 20 km/h faster than the peugeot 905 (!!!) - that was 366 km/h for the 962 against 346 km/h for the pugs.
I didn't realise that, but it perhaps isn't suprising. The 905 was a downforce car. Maybe the 962 still had a little hang over from pre-chicane Le Mans too. Also, I'm trying to remember, what were the fuel rules then? Did the Porsches care more about fuel economy than the 3.5l cars?
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Old 2 Jul 2007, 20:29 (Ref:1952721)   #53
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[quote=sssssssss]) that's ok cut 7! you don't have to be as freaky as i am and actually remember all this stuff! this is illness!
quote]
Im not as bonkers as i thought...
The quickest ever recorded ever at LM was 254 mph by a WM pug, presumbly the mad V10 atmo pug.
However, how it managed to get up to that speed with the new chicane in place i dont know.
Or maybe its a pug of pre-atmo pre-chicane days.
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Old 2 Jul 2007, 22:39 (Ref:1952862)   #54
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sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
[quote=CUT 7]
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Originally Posted by sssssssss
) that's ok cut 7! you don't have to be as freaky as i am and actually remember all this stuff! this is illness!
quote]
Im not as bonkers as i thought...
The quickest ever recorded ever at LM was 254 mph by a WM pug, presumbly the mad V10 atmo pug.
However, how it managed to get up to that speed with the new chicane in place i dont know.
Or maybe its a pug of pre-atmo pre-chicane days.
Yup that speed was in the pre-chicane days. It was in 1988 and it was not an official Peugeot, it was the WM P88 with a Turbo Peugeot ZNS4 3000 cc V6 engine. The car hit those 405 km/h (252 mph I think) on the full Mulsanne Straight but only managed 3:34.650 time in qualifying, which in '88 meant it was only 22nd . And its engine broke very early in the race... so not really the endurance of an official Peugeot engine

The highest top speed of a car that lasted until the end of the race (and in fact won it in 1989) was the almost 401 km/h (249 mph) of the Sauber Mercedes C9 - again, 1989. But on the Mulsanne chicanes track configuration, the highest speed was the Porsche 962 in 1993 hitting 366 km/h (227 mph). To be noted that the Nissan R90CK also hit 366 km/h in 1990 (when setting that great time of 3:27).
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Old 2 Jul 2007, 22:44 (Ref:1952865)   #55
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The WR was from 1988-two years before the chicanes. It used a 2.85 liter turbocharged Peugeot PRV V6. So it had no relation to the 905.
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Old 2 Jul 2007, 23:04 (Ref:1952887)   #56
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dj choc ice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the griddj choc ice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
indeed, there was no relation between the mechanicals made by peugeot for the WM to the mechanicals of the 905, the 905 i believe had an engine that was used later on in jordan formula 1 car's when the 3.5 litre formula went down the toilet, a real shame imo, as the 3.5 litre car's were the best race car's to have ever raced, partially because i love nothing more than the sound of a high revving V10 or V8, hence why i miss the judd GV4 4.0 V10 exhaust note so much.

in hindsight i would think the old 905 would only corner slightly quicker than a current car, and although the trap speed for the 905 on the mulsanne is much higher i would think because of its manual gearbox it could be slower getting up to say 160mph than a modern car with a semi auto race gearbox.

just to clarify something on the 905 as well, the car appeared in various guises, the 1990 car was woefully underpowered and aerodynamically imbalanced, then half way through 1991 the car had a huge aero update and engine update, then in 1992 the car had another fairly big aero rework and engine modification and in 1993 i think the mods to the 905 were only to the engine and gearbox and we did get the 905 evo 2 with a load more downforce, and i believe the first sequential gearbox in sportscar racing even though i dont think the car ever raced.

but im curios as to how much power the 905 really had?, ive read in many places on the different years of the 905 and the power figure's for each year for the atmo 3.5 V10 vary from these in each year.

1990:550-600bhp
1991:600-660bhp
1992:640-700bhp
1993:640-725bhp

im just wondering what the more exact power figure's were for each year, i did hear that in 1993 the car's were going to be air restricted in 3.5litre to around 550bhp, was this true or untrue?
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Old 3 Jul 2007, 00:38 (Ref:1952936)   #57
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sssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsssssssss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
as far as i know the 1992-1993 peugeot 905 had 680 hp. but you can never be quite sure of the official statements of the manufacturers - a good example would be the r10, about which audi claim to have about 650 hp, but inside the race environment everybody talks about it as having 700 hp (the most relevant quote on this subject is henri pescarolo's, who declared in 2006 that it's very hard to race a 640 hp petrol car - the pescarolo c60 '06 - against a 700 hp turbodiesel. so we might as well suspect that the 905 had more than 680 hp, especially if we look at those absolutely terrifying lap times of 1992 (3:21).

i think the big difference between the 905 and all other prototypes was in fact the corner speeds, because the trap speed of 351 km/h isn't so much faster than others (for instance, in 1999 Toyota hit 352 km/h and poled at 3:29.930 - an excellent time, but still over 8 seconds slower than the pug, the audi r8c hit 349 km/h, the mercedes clr hit 349 km/h, the bmw v12 lmr hit 342 km/h).
also, in 1993, the peugeot 905 hit 346 km/h as opposed to porsche's 366 km/h, and still peugeot poled at 3:24.940, while the 962's best lap was 3:37.630. so i think it's obvious the pug's acceleration and especially corner speeds were most important.
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Old 3 Jul 2007, 18:37 (Ref:1953577)   #58
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Thanks for the clarification.
While we're on this , i noticed that the Jag (ford)XJR-14 atmo qualified 1st but didnt start,and the race was won by Rotary Mazda ,the XJR-12 , pre-atmo 7 litre V12 coming 2nd. So why didnt the atmo car start.It was 'withdrawn' ?
As for the reason why the V10 peugeot was so quick ?
Acceleration, & great, great chassis

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Old 4 Jul 2007, 12:59 (Ref:1954140)   #59
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The XJR-14 was a sprint car at the time, it hadn't been developed for Le Mans. Both Mercedes and Jaguar took the approach of qualifying the two 3.5l cars, but concentrating the race on the old proven cars. Peugeot had no old car, and they progressed as Mercedes and Jaguar expected their 3.5l cars to. Starting the 14 would have only have been a distraction for Jaguar.

Interestingly even before the 3.5l cars, Jaguar were running a Sprint (V6) and a Endurance (the good old V12).
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Old 4 Jul 2007, 13:49 (Ref:1954191)   #60
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V good info cheers.
So the answer is 'not much in it'
the atmo pug & jag wasnt realy a Gp c car so I kind of exclude them from my pontificating .They were the daddy though, speed wise.F1 cars with carbon fibre body bits .Thanks to bernie they were the death knell to Gp C...Oh no i got me self started again
Group C cars were fast over a single qualifying lap, but current cars are much, much quicker during the race, particularly over 12hr/24hr.

Even when you look at the 3.5l cars, it was only the last generation 905 that was significantly quicker, the 92/93 Toyota TS010 lapped around 3.37/7 in qualifying.
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