IMSA Race 2016 Rolex 24 at Daytona

[schmidder]

Originally Posted by Pontlieue

They were still in contention for the win, and for most of the stint, Angelelli was still setting competitive times. No one realized how serious it was until he fainted after the race.

It was irresponsible, but I see why they did it.

The Taylor boy that angelelli relieved reported the issue. Pretty reckless behavior by the team I say. Competitive lap times or not.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by JoestEver

I wonder why the team opt to continue under that circumstance? Clearly knowing that the issue was not fixed?

Originally Posted by schmidder

The Taylor boy that angelelli relieved reported the issue. Pretty reckless behavior by the team I say. Competitive lap times or not.

True race fans understand why they continued, let alone someone that has been involved with racing.... :wink:

[BSchneiderFan]

Seems pretty irresponsible if they knew it was an issue. If Max had passed out on the banking it could have been catastrophic.

[RWill2073]

WTR would be great at the le mans 23 1/2 hours.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

WTR would be great at the le mans 23 1/2 hours.

The more I think about the more i realize that what WTR did was irresponsible. They could have parked the car with 12 minutes left in the race and still finished 3rd

[Matt]

Just put extraction vents on the side windows/doors like the BRO1 and be done with it.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by jimclark

True race fans understand why they continued, let alone someone that has been involved with racing.... :wink:

True race fans would understand the reason for pulling him and the car. This could have ended very, very badly.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Matt

Just put extraction vents on the side windows/doors like the BRO1 and be done with it.

You still have to have inflow into the car. The negative pressure draw off of the LMP cockpit vents is minimal and relies on positive pressure into the cabin for proper air exchange. A simple roof NACA inlet, and openings equal to the inflow diameter on the NACA duct(in sq. in), or slightly smaller, would suffice for enough flow velocity to exchange the cabin air at speed in short order.

The other interesting thing, is how much of a negative draw is present to flood the cockpit with exhaust gases.

[CyberMotor]

What are the rules in the WEC in regards to oxygen supply to the closed cockpits? I thought there were international rules established at the same time for air conditioning and oxygen supply for the closed cockpit cars where every opening is attempted to be sealed.

CO poisoning is not a light topic.

[chernaudi]

I can only say this from the POV of LMP1 cars. It seemed that initially that Audi got their cockpit air from ducting in the nose of their cars. Then from '13 to '15 they got it supplemented from ducting at the base of the windshield. With the new R18, I'm not sure where they get cockpit air from. They used to siphon off used air out of ducts built into the rear firewall and vented out though the engine cover. Now they vent used air mostly out of ducting formed from the rear of the doors.

Toyota have done the same as far as windshield ducting and door ventilation, and Porsche have door ventilation and can put small intake ducts on the access hatches for the front suspension bits (Toyota have also done this).

Strange thing about the DPs is that they do have fairly huge air intakes at the base of the windshield, but it seems that they're not as sealed from exhaust/engine bay gases as LMP cars are, mostly due to monocoque vs tube frame/semi-monocoque reinforcement construction.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

True race fans would understand the reason for pulling him and the car. This could have ended very, very badly.

Absolutely...on both counts.

My point is, however, as a fan now, and as a competitor in the past, I understand the continuation.
As a team owner/manager I would have asked if the driver/s wanted to continue.
As a driver I'm sure my answer would have been an emphatic yes as I would have assumed that I would know when to pull off or not....

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Absolutely...on both counts.

My point is, however, as a fan now, and as a competitor in the past, I understand the continuation.
As a team owner/manager I would have asked if the driver/s wanted to continue.
As a driver I'm sure my answer would have been an emphatic yes as I would have assumed that I would know when to pull off or not....

You understand the desire sure.

But, the voice of reason needs to step in and say no. Park the car, still get third place points. The fact that someone needs to die or be maimed in motorsports to bring change, is abhorrent.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

What are the rules in the WEC in regards to oxygen supply to the closed cockpits? I thought there were international rules established at the same time for air conditioning and oxygen supply for the closed cockpit cars where every opening is attempted to be sealed.

CO poisoning is not a light topic.

The LMP cockpits have to be vented. That's why we see the air vents in the doors. All the cars have them.

[Mike Hedlund]

I think some of you guys are being too hard on Max and WTR. With 20/20 hindsight of course it would have been better for him to stop before the finish, but neither he nor the team had all that information at the time.

I don't know how many of you have been exposed to CO poisoning (especially from inside the race car), but I have (mildy). It's almost impossible for the driver to tell how bad it is before it's too late. It starts as an exhaust smell and then you become numb to it and that's when the bad stuff starts happening in your head -- but you're not able to make the proper judgement yourself in most cases (similar to being drunk...). There's also varying degrees of it so I'm a proponent of having a sensor in the car wired into the data system (same as cockpit temp sensors) that is then recorded and hopefully passed via telemetry into the pit lane.

In the heat of the moment the driver will almost always say they can do it. And the only thing the team had to go by was the drivers feedback. I haven't heard the radio communications, but I'm pretty sure I know what Max told the team and it wasn't anything that'd make him stop.

Personally, this hits very close to home for me. I had a serious scare during the first race of the Sonoma Pirelli World Challenge weekend this past summer (2015). It was a hot weekend and when the race started, none of my onboard cooling systems functioned (aux. high pressure fan to blow air directly at me, helmet blower, or car AC). I knew it was going to be hot, but having been used to racing Porsche Cup's in sprint races without any extra cooling I figured it was fine. After 2 laps I knew something was wrong because it wasn't just hot, but it was baking (turned out my helmet blower was overheating and actually blowing hot air into my helmet too).

I only remember the first 6 laps of the race, the rest I apparently did on autopilot. I remember at one point just trying to keep on track and having to remember what track I was on and what turn was coming up. My team thought my radio had became disconnected as they were talking to me on the radio but I wasn't responding (I don't remember anyone talking to me during the race).

I do remember seeing the checkered flag and taking the car back to the SCCA tech trailer after the race. When the rest of the team got back to the trailer I had already changed into my street clothes. I debriefed with my engineer and I remember he kept asking me if I was ok and I thought I was fine. After a few minutes of going back and forth they decided to call the track medical over to the trailer to check me out.. and by then they were gone. There was still an ambulance and fire truck at the track (getting ready to leave) so they took me over there.

The ambulance crew took me to the ER and I knew my racing weekend was over at that point as they'd have to report it to the track officials.

Looking back on it, it's extremely embarrassing. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person and I wasn't trying to make a living or anything so I can't explain why I kept going. I wasn't in my rite mind, but nobody else could have known -- unless maybe the cock pit air temp was being passed over telemetry. Not only was it dangerous to myself, but to everyone else out on track with me. The only good thing that came out of it was more respect from my crew who was working on the car -- that earned a lot of points in their book. :-)

ps: I don't remember the exact air temp that was logged in the car for that hour, but i think it was over 140 degrees for the entire race.

edit: here's the series highlights from that race in my car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89k9SRYMY2A -- I don't remember any of that happening except the start and the checker flag at the end. it was pretty weird when i watched it the first time...

-mike

[JoestEver]

That's one hell of a race, Mike. Honestly, for folks like me it's easy to bash WTR after the race, but I have to agree with you on that.

[Starfish Primer]

As Mike explains CO intoxication and hypoxia are difficult to detect. Plane pilots are trained to detect the symptoms because when you detect something is wrong it is too late.

Time to place CO detectors in closed cockpit cars?

[canamman]

Very interesting. Thanks MH ! Awesome story from behind the wheel.
You are the best!

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

I think some of you guys are being too hard on Max and WTR. With 20/20 hindsight of course it would have been better for him to stop before the finish, but neither he nor the team had all that information at the time.
-mike

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

I think some of you guys are being too hard on Max and WTR. With 20/20 hindsight of course it would have been better for him to stop before the finish, but neither he nor the team had all that information at the time.

I don't know how many of you have been exposed to CO poisoning (especially from inside the race car), but I have (mildy). It's almost impossible for the driver to tell how bad it is before it's too late. It starts as an exhaust smell and then you become numb to it and that's when the bad stuff starts happening in your head -- but you're not able to make the proper judgement yourself in most cases (similar to being drunk...). There's also varying degrees of it so I'm a proponent of having a sensor in the car wired into the data system (same as cockpit temp sensors) that is then recorded and hopefully passed via telemetry into the pit lane.

In the heat of the moment the driver will almost always say they can do it. And the only thing the team had to go by was the drivers feedback. I haven't heard the radio communications, but I'm pretty sure I know what Max told the team and it wasn't anything that'd make him stop.

Personally, this hits very close to home for me. I had a serious scare during the first race of the Sonoma Pirelli World Challenge weekend this past summer (2015). It was a hot weekend and when the race started, none of my onboard cooling systems functioned (aux. high pressure fan to blow air directly at me, helmet blower, or car AC). I knew it was going to be hot, but having been used to racing Porsche Cup's in sprint races without any extra cooling I figured it was fine. After 2 laps I knew something was wrong because it wasn't just hot, but it was baking (turned out my helmet blower was overheating and actually blowing hot air into my helmet too).

I only remember the first 6 laps of the race, the rest I apparently did on autopilot. I remember at one point just trying to keep on track and having to remember what track I was on and what turn was coming up. My team thought my radio had became disconnected as they were talking to me on the radio but I wasn't responding (I don't remember anyone talking to me during the race).

I do remember seeing the checkered flag and taking the car back to the SCCA tech trailer after the race. When the rest of the team got back to the trailer I had already changed into my street clothes. I debriefed with my engineer and I remember he kept asking me if I was ok and I thought I was fine. After a few minutes of going back and forth they decided to call the track medical over to the trailer to check me out.. and by then they were gone. There was still an ambulance and fire truck at the track (getting ready to leave) so they took me over there.

The ambulance crew took me to the ER and I knew my racing weekend was over at that point as they'd have to report it to the track officials.

Looking back on it, it's extremely embarrassing. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person and I wasn't trying to make a living or anything so I can't explain why I kept going. I wasn't in my rite mind, but nobody else could have known -- unless maybe the cock pit air temp was being passed over telemetry. Not only was it dangerous to myself, but to everyone else out on track with me. The only good thing that came out of it was more respect from my crew who was working on the car -- that earned a lot of points in their book. :-)

ps: I don't remember the exact air temp that was logged in the car for that hour, but i think it was over 140 degrees for the entire race.

edit: here's the series highlights from that race in my car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89k9SRYMY2A -- I don't remember any of that happening except the start and the checker flag at the end. it was pretty weird when i watched it the first time...

-mike

I have been, multiple times in my line of work.....I have long term effects from it.

The issue here is that they were well aware of a problem, and chose to continue. When you start getting into the 4-500 ppm ranges, problems come up very quickly.

With the length of time he spent in the car, and his condition, he was probably sitting in 800-1200ppm. Another handful of laps and we'd be looking at a dead driver.

I understand the desire to run, and continue, but, IMSA and WTR dodged a bullet here. They need to make changes. A simple CO detector, or some small changes to cockpit ventilation(total air exchange every 30 seconds) is VERY easy to do.

But, as we've seen with even something as simple as tightening belts, IMSA doesn't care, and nothing will be done.

[TF110]

My childhood/adolescent friend had to be resuscitated due to co poisoning. He had no idea that it could kill him. Breathing in exhaust is something you might not even realize is happening if you're somewhat used to an exhaust smell. I can see this being a simple miscalculation and the team/driver just feeling it's something minor. It's definitely a creeper sleeper. It'll take you slowly by surprise but it'll definitely knock you out.

[CyberMotor]

CO poisoning can have and often has long-term effects. Hopefully, I am wrong but they may not have dodged the bullet. Only time will tell.

I think when you have a driver come in complaining of fumes and being sick, you stop it right there. If there had been flames, they would of reacted differently. But, because it is invisible, there needs to be detectors and vents in the cockpits.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I have been, multiple times in my line of work.....I have long term effects from it.

yeah ... we'd noticed.

Seriously though, while IMSA and Everyone, including the fans, got outrageously lucky here, without a sensor, the team pretty much has to rely on the driver. You don;'t throw away a chance to win one of the biggest races of the season unless you have a really strong indication of danger, and as has been stated, Max seemed alright to the crew and his lap times seemed reasonable.

You and the others who suggest it are correct---a telemetered sensor in the cockpit just makes sense. But absent that, I cannot fault Max for pushing on ... and as Mike Hedlund says, it is like drinking ... you cannot tell you are drunk because you are drunk. You cannot tell you are suffering the effects of CO poisoning because you are.

retroactive blame is a losing game, IMO. Going forward with what should be a fairly inexpensive safety feature is a winner, IMO. Make it a requirement in all 2017 P-cars ... temp sensor too, by the way.

And even then ... should a car be called in if the sensor is broken but the cockpit temp is fine?

Imagine a championship battle at PLM, where it si chilly and rainy and No one is suffering from heat, quite the opposite ... but the sensor gets wet, and the championship is decided by a stray drop of water when the driver, crew, race control, and every fan were all shivering.

Anyway ... As Mr. Hedlund proves, a good enough drive can race while unconscious.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

yeah ... we'd noticed.

Seriously though, while IMSA and Everyone, including the fans, got outrageously lucky here, without a sensor, the team pretty much has to rely on the driver. You don;'t throw away a chance to win one of the biggest races of the season unless you have a really strong indication of danger, and as has been stated, Max seemed alright to the crew and his lap times seemed reasonable.

You and the others who suggest it are correct---a telemetered sensor in the cockpit just makes sense. But absent that, I cannot fault Max for pushing on ... and as Mike Hedlund says, it is like drinking ... you cannot tell you are drunk because you are drunk. You cannot tell you are suffering the effects of CO poisoning because you are.

retroactive blame is a losing game, IMO. Going forward with what should be a fairly inexpensive safety feature is a winner, IMO. Make it a requirement in all 2017 P-cars ... temp sensor too, by the way.

And even then ... should a car be called in if the sensor is broken but the cockpit temp is fine?

Imagine a championship battle at PLM, where it si chilly and rainy and No one is suffering from heat, quite the opposite ... but the sensor gets wet, and the championship is decided by a stray drop of water when the driver, crew, race control, and every fan were all shivering.

Anyway ... As Mr. Hedlund proves, a good enough drive can race while unconscious.

[Lanky Turtle]

Did WTR ever give an explanation for the cause of this? I've heard of this happening during NASCAR races when the metal body panels would get crushed in and leave a hole for the gases to enter the car, but I don't remember ever hearing of a driver actually fainting from this in all my years of watching racing. It probably wasn't something they would expect, especially in a rear engined car.

[Bob Baldwin]

I know in several Nascar Races as well as in some sportscar races Drivers have needed help getting out of the cars . In a few instances medics administered oxygen took the drivers to the infield care center for checkups and usually getting an IV for loss of fluids .These were usually for heat related issues . Can't ever recall anyone ever fainting though . Can't remember the year but I think Price Cobb once had an issue with exhast fumes that required hospitalization for a w days