Alternative fuels

[Lotusonpole]

Hi...
anyone has any thoughts on the possibility of, for example, diesel powered or Hydrogen powered F1 cars in the future?

Just a thought...if a little green...lol.

Cheers
Peter

[Kicking-back]

Methanol is environmentally sound, I believe - maybe they should look at that.

[Armco Bender]

Would a solar powered Minardi go any faster.

[Lotusonpole]

"Would a solar powered Minardi go any faster."
Not if its raining...lol.

Methanol...good idea...but it burns with an invisible flame I think...safety issues?

Cheers
Peter

[ParkLife]

If they really wanted to push technology forward they would switch the engine formula to Hydrogen powered rotary engines.

The rate at which this technology would be developed if it was used in F1 would massivle benefit the road car industry and therefore also have a massive potential impact on the environment.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Lotusonpole

Methanol...good idea...but it burns with an invisible flame I think...safety issues?

Tends not to be a problem in IndyCars - for two reasons.

1. The ignition temperature of methanol is much higher than petrol

2. It can be extinguished with water

[Raglanparade]

Hydrogen in F1 would be dangerous.

Instead of emitting Carbon Monoxide into the atmosphere, it emits water from the exhaust.

You dont want to run into a patch of water going through the Eau Rouge or braking into the Parabolica on slicks.

Imagine the starting grid !

[BootsOntheSide]

Methanol works quite well in Indy racing, it's a long time since they had fuel fires - Verstappen and Diniz had their infamous F1 incidents more recently. LPG might be an option, it's being dabbled with in BTCC Touring Car racing right now, and under the right car circumstances it's no slower than conventional petrol. One way or another, this will become an issue in the future, as we simply don't have an infinite amount of petrol - using millions of years of created petrol in something like 200 years is surely the great 'achievement' of modern mankind.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Methanol works quite well in Indy racing, it's a long time since they had fuel fires - .

Must disagree with that.

Both ChampCar and IRL usually have 2 or 3 fuel fires every season, although they are quickly dealt with.

[RWC]

Water from the exausts of hydrogen engines simply would never be enough to cause any wet track problems

Hydrogen has some very postive enviromental benifits but forcing f1 cars to use it is utterly pointless.Everybody knows how to make a hydrogen burning engine that makes zero pollution so there is nothing to learn at all
The problem with hydrogen is making it and f1 can't help there at all.
There is some scope for fuel cells using various fuels but they are not at the stage yet where f1 could push along the development

I'm not sure about the ethanol/methanol options.Maybe f1 could help advance the technology required but that (like hydrogen) is more of a choice the world will have to make
i.e -is it something that will improve things?.. or (in the case of hydrogen currently) make things far worse ?

[EGG]

what about hydrogen electric fuel cells?

you'd have to have a loudspeaker on the back to make growling noises to keep the fans happy though

[marcel82]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Must disagree with that.

Both ChampCar and IRL usually have 2 or 3 fuel fires every season, although they are quickly dealt with.

true. the only difference with the Diniz-Verstappen fires is that methanol flames are invisible.

[toot toot]

What fuel do f1's use now?

[gttouring]

high pressure rigs wouldn't be to nice for methanol
but methanol has proven its safety record (being water dissapated and all) and it makes no emissions other than water, and it is easily renewable, and power is easily extracable...i don't see why more of this isn't used in the world...hydrogen fuelcells are the current cache term and idea, Methanol and ethanol work fine and can convert existing tech too, does no one care of the sounds and smells of four wheel ICE's? (the shelby Cobra CSX a Internal Combustion Hydrogen fuel engine- works brilliant at the tune of 500 hp and torque at 500 cu. in. of displacement (8 litres) is a good show for new fuels...and well Nasamax and Champcars and IRL cars running methanol/ethanol at good power, and Nitromethane (ha) top fuel , Monster trucks, Funny cars...Gasoline err petrol is not the best ecological choice, but before any one perfect "Fuel cell" technology why not work on a new ICE fuel to convert the BILLIONS of existing cars?
besides i don't like ozone in my car from fuel cell byproducts or the possibility of spaceshuttle explosion. at least a methanol fire is put out by a jump in a pool.

[Snrub]

If the goal is to promote alternative fuels than Hydrogen loses out right there. The first thing to mention is that gasoline is not an energy source, it's an energy medium. It takes substantially more energy to refine gasoline than it can be extracted from it. Hydrogen is extremely energy costly and MUCH worse than gasoline. The thing about Hydrogen is that technology isn't going to solve that problem, it's physics that it requires a lot of energy to seperate the hydrogen from the molecules its found in. Without viable nuclear fusion reactors, hydrogen powered cars will never happen in significant volume.

I really think the only viable options ethanol like E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gas), bio-diesel or pure electrics. The later of which requires the most research but isn't nearly as far from practical as most people think.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by toot toot

What fuel do f1's use now?

Petrol

[Don K]

Originally Posted by gttouring

... methanol ... makes no emissions other than water, and it is easily renewable, ...

I would expect that it would also emit CO or CO2.
And as far as I know, it only is easily renewable if you happen to live in a country with lots of uninhabited space ...

[Driver]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

LPG might be an option, it's being dabbled with in BTCC Touring Car racing right now, and under the right car circumstances it's no slower than conventional petrol.

A few years ago (10 maybe?) there was a XR6 Falcon running in the Bathurst 12Hr running LPG. It went well. The only modification they had to make to the LPG system is to have a quick release on the LPG bottle so they changed the whole bottle as they could not refill in the pits.

It was actually quicker than refilling with petrol.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by ParkLife

The rate at which this technology would be developed if it was used in F1 would massivle benefit the road car industry and therefore also have a massive potential impact on the environment.

I agree, though you would have to create the rules carefully. As the thread so far suggests, which 'alternatives' to pick could be a problem.

More generally, I've often thought that motor racing (and F1 in particular) could do a lot more to develop and promote alternative fuels. With the money and competitive elements in F1, I'm sure technology could be developed quickly and might even gain wider acceptance because it was in such a high-profile series.

From F1s point of view, alternative fuels/power sources would also open up some ingenuity in car design whilst also (initially at least) keeping speeds down, a topical issue of late. Of course, it might prevent F1 from being the home of the quickest cars, (though it hasn't always been the fastest series in the past) and the oil companies wouldn't like it either...

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by krt917

I agree, though you would have to create the rules carefully. As the thread so far suggests, which 'alternatives' to pick could be a problem.

More generally, I've often thought that motor racing (and F1 in particular) could do a lot more to develop and promote alternative fuels. With the money and competitive elements in F1, I'm sure technology could be developed quickly and might even gain wider acceptance because it was in such a high-profile series.

From F1s point of view, alternative fuels/power sources would also open up some ingenuity in car design whilst also (initially at least) keeping speeds down, a topical issue of late. Of course, it might prevent F1 from being the home of the quickest cars, (though it hasn't always been the fastest series in the past) and the oil companies wouldn't like it either...

I agree with most of this. Using alternative fuels/power sources, F1 will have more sense... as the pinnacle of technology, as purists like.

I think it's the best sollution. Cars will be slower (but, with all security measures, isn't one of the reasons that moves FIA to put more and more changes to car regulations???) but they will contribute more to humanity mostly when the peak of petrol extraction has passed and we're going to a period when petrol price will be in a continous spread... due to its progressive lack.

Oil companies? Ok, they could be angry but some companies (Shell, for example) are working in alternate sources of energy. Then they could be into F1 business if that happened.

[Lotusonpole]

I agree with both krt917 and mekola.

I don't think the oil companies will be too miffed. Shell are not the only one working on alternative fuels...BP and Esso for two.
In fact alternative fuels in F1 just might force the oil companies hands.
It would be a great opportunity for development and as said it could lead to some innovative car design.

Cheers
Peter

[krt917]

I'm sure any oil company with half an eye on the future is developing alternatives, but there does seem to be a slightly lazy approach throughout the industry to this sort of thing. F1 would be a good way of changing that - keep a high profile and help the environment!