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Old 9 Jan 2017, 10:31 (Ref:3701220)   #101
JamieStewart9
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Originally Posted by chunder View Post
Bikes are only an earner for 3 series. BSB, SBK and MotoGP.

Not for any others
That's not true.

Donington Park make more profit (that's profit, not turnover) from a 3 day Thundersport GB event than they ever have from World Superbikes.
BSB is marginal in comparison.

Moto GP on the new contracting cost would struggle to break even (on the pre-2009 rate that was very different of course, but the price difference is £1,200,00 now).
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 10:37 (Ref:3701222)   #102
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I was talking really about numbers in and out. And the potential to recoup the hosting fees really, not simply making money.

Obviously a club level meeting you are not paying large hosting fees as you are for any decent size international series. I would like to know how you know this, maybe you work there?

But I doubt you would get thousands of spectators, you would probably struggle for a few hundred paying, as the rest would be made up of team members and friends and parents that travelled with the rider.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 11:36 (Ref:3701231)   #103
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I was talking really about numbers in and out. And the potential to recoup the hosting fees really, not simply making money.

Obviously a club level meeting you are not paying large hosting fees as you are for any decent size international series. I would like to know how you know this, maybe you work there?

But I doubt you would get thousands of spectators, you would probably struggle for a few hundred paying, as the rest would be made up of team members and friends and parents that travelled with the rider.
Numbers in and out cause many added costs/problems. The comment was indeed about making money as the thread centred around what was "viable" and what was "not viable".

I know because I have been running events (stand alone events) for the past 22 years. I have also managed and operated 3 mainstream venues during that period (including Donington Park) and been involved in the negotiations of the contracts for Moto-GP, World Superbikes, Moto-X Des Nations, Supermotard GP, European Rallycross and many more.
Some of the supposedly 'informed' posts that posters here with very high daily post counts come up with from time to time make me smile at their naivety.

On the last point you are almost correct. Last year we (Thundersport GB) averaged 1,236 paid spectators per event which is considerably higher than the club meeting average which for combined car & bike non-promoted meetings hovers around 179 per day.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 12:03 (Ref:3701239)   #104
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OK so what you are saying is that for an event like SBK at Donington which might pull in perhaps 30000 paying spectators over the three days. Used to be a massive amount more under Flammini.

An event that hosts 1200 a day makes more money?

I think a hell of lot of people would find that hard to believe.

A SBK ticket would cost perhaps 40 quid with perhaps 25 on a qually day and 15 on Friday practice, don't know haven't been for years.

A thundersports race day ticket, maybe 20? a tenner on all other days?

Please enlighten us on where that vast amount of money goes? Can't all be hosting fees. Yes staff wages but the stalls all pay a plot fee, more income, you have camping at these events that you charge for, more income.

We have been told that Silverstone struggles to make money. And that the crowd figures there for 3 days are well in excess of 150000. All paying upwards of 100 quid a ticket. That's 15 million in gate receipts very roughly could be a few mill more or less. You can see why they struggle when they get no other income and the hosting fee is probably a large percentage of that.







Minuses, obviously a decent program costs a bit to print, more security. Lighting in camping areas. Electric, cleaners, water. First aid. Timekeepers.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 13:46 (Ref:3701258)   #105
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OK so what you are saying is that for an event like SBK at Donington which might pull in perhaps 30000 paying spectators over the three days. Used to be a massive amount more under Flammini.

An event that hosts 1200 a day makes more money?

I think a hell of lot of people would find that hard to believe.

A SBK ticket would cost perhaps 40 quid with perhaps 25 on a qually day and 15 on Friday practice, don't know haven't been for years.

A thundersports race day ticket, maybe 20? a tenner on all other days?

Please enlighten us on where that vast amount of money goes? Can't all be hosting fees. Yes staff wages but the stalls all pay a plot fee, more income, you have camping at these events that you charge for, more income.

We have been told that Silverstone struggles to make money. And that the crowd figures there for 3 days are well in excess of 150000. All paying upwards of 100 quid a ticket. That's 15 million in gate receipts very roughly could be a few mill more or less. You can see why they struggle when they get no other income and the hosting fee is probably a large percentage of that.







Minuses, obviously a decent program costs a bit to print, more security. Lighting in camping areas. Electric, cleaners, water. First aid. Timekeepers.
Once again (as on many other subjects) you are thrashing around wildly with ill thought out quotes about a business you have little or no understanding of. You may be a long term fan and participant (and some of your outside observations can be quite insightful) but you do often shoot from the hip without any basis of understanding on the real situation.

I pay £70,000 for 3 days at Donington Park and they keep the gate money and all trade fees. That is the standard contract for cars or bikes.

For WSBK Donington Park are required to pay Dorna an inscription fee, provide the circuit for 5 days (including build up and break down days) not only free of charge, but with extra costs for TV paddock supply, power generation, paddock hospitality (water,waste, power, tv feeds). I won't even bother to include the lost revenue that would have been included for renting out those 5 days (3 of them being out of the total allocation of 60 available Race Days).

A weekend ticket costs £65 including parking outside at Bobs Baulk.

To cover those costs Donington Park need a REAL paying crowd of 24,230 which they do not even get close to. Therefore the venue operates that premier event at a considerable loss. You know - where you are paying out more money than you get back in for everything you can possibly charge for....

Donington Park costs around £13,600 per day to operate (security, staff, rates, electricity, maintaining the infrastructure etc).

Therefore they make around £44,300 profit from one of my 3 day events - which I think is fair given the bigger picture within motorsport.

I don't see why the simple maths of that are hard to understand and I rarely meet anyone who knows the true picture who finds it hard to believe. People just assume that big events make money, because the do not know the facts.

I do know all of the background figures, I just don't often get into a debate about them, as I think it is often unhelpful to end up in a pointless game of internet ping-pong with people who not only don't understand, but often don't actually want to understand.

I'm off on holiday now, so I'll leave you to it. Bye
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 13:53 (Ref:3701259)   #106
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 14:26 (Ref:3701269)   #107
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I suppose a level of arrogance on your part is to be expected, touche.

But. Thankyou for the insight.

I was not really doing anything other than thinking out loud, obviously not working in the incestuous world of motorsport I have no access to figures as you do, and very few people would have. For those of us on the outside, these sort of figures are not available so we can only go on what we know. And hence get things wrong. My bad.

So what you are saying is effectively that it is a rather pointless idea for Donington to hold biggish events. If so, why do they do it then? If they ALL lose money why on earth would anyone bother? They must make something or they would not carry on hosting such events surely? Superbike gets a decent crowd, surely can't be far from 20 odd thousand, certainly seemed more than that last time I was there anyway.

I guess most of these events are on multi year deals so there would be penalty clauses in place if a track quit? So they have to put up and shut up more or less?

Oh and the haters will love you for life now btw, you might even get fan mail, see above x

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Old 9 Jan 2017, 15:05 (Ref:3701282)   #108
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if you think about it, there's a critical point with crowd figures where you get the biggest crowd that you can manage on a certain level of staffing and facilities before you have to upgrade part of those facilities for a significant amount of money that needs a big increase of people through the gate to pay for them (or an extra tenner or so on the sunday entry fee). i would imagine something like the blancpain meeting last year was fairly close to one maximum point, and wec is increasingly close to another.

an example of that being done badly would be the wsr silverstone and donington meetings where there was woefully inadequate spending on certain areas (eg security staffing and spectator marshalling) compared to an event with paid tickets.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 16:54 (Ref:3701305)   #109
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A forum is like a chat in the pub or at the Golf Club, there are experts and people with an opinion, some better informed than others and we are all guilty of expressing personal opinions as facts.

The figures quoted above are interesting and one assumes that circuits feel obliged to host big meetings as much for the prestige as anything.
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 17:34 (Ref:3701312)   #110
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yes, prestige. It's marketing, maybe a loss leader. How many bikers want to do trackdays on a particular circuit because that's where their heroes have raced? Or how many club racers want to race on an F1 circuit, same reason?
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Old 9 Jan 2017, 19:44 (Ref:3701362)   #111
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Once again (as on many other subjects) you are thrashing around wildly with ill thought out quotes about a business you have little or no understanding of. You may be a long term fan and participant (and some of your outside observations can be quite insightful) but you do often shoot from the hip without any basis of understanding on the real situation.
I think the information in the post above (part that was not quoted) was very specific, on target and highly illustrative. But why the beat down that I quote above? It wasn't required to make the point. It actually left a sour taste in my mouth.

I think knowledgeable individuals participating in discussion here is a wonderful thing. I wish we had more of it. Those of us who are interested, but maybe not "in the know" need that missing information to set the record straight or course correct the discussion.

But when in a position of power or knowledge, there is no need to berate those who are wrong because they are uninformed. Even if their ignorance, naivety or self confidence is irritating. Your bonafides is your strength of your argument. Being nice is an easy, disarming and a successful way to make a point.

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Old 9 Jan 2017, 21:59 (Ref:3701389)   #112
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All of this goes to prove the old adage - if you want to make a small fortune out of motor racing, start with a very big one. There are very few people who actually make lots of dosh from racing (maybe one BCE and cohorts are the limit), the best the rest of us can do is keep moving money around and hope some sticks at some stage. The more you push round, the more may stick but it's all built on sand. If the merry go round even slows, the whole lot sinks.

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Old 10 Jan 2017, 18:21 (Ref:3701638)   #113
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I think the information in the post above (part that was not quoted) was very specific, on target and highly illustrative. But why the beat down that I quote above? It wasn't required to make the point. It actually left a sour taste in my mouth.
Considering Chunder's dismissive and argumentative response to his earlier posts, I actually thought JS's response quite restrained. Even Chunder accepts that he was thinking out loud - not the best basis for a considered discussion....and he does have form for this...I tend to mentally read his username as "chunter" Of course everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but an informed one is so much better...

However we're still roughly in the spirit of goodwill, so let's let it go. Whilst I remember watching the British GP at Silverstone in the late 60s and early 70s, and Brands in the 70s when it alternated with Silverstone, the viewing experiences are much different now. I can't afford to go to the GP - the nearest I got being the practice day some years ago when I was gifted some tickets, but a friend who went this year, as a treat for his lads, was appalled at the value for money and the very restricted viewing - effectively all you were doing was watching a largescreen TV, admittedly with an element of "atmosphere".

Despite watching F1 for nearly 50 years, I fear for its long-term future under the greed of the moneymen, and I can't see how it can be viable for BRDC to continue to milk club motorsport to subsidise the GP - which by and large is not run for motorsport followers.
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 22:36 (Ref:3701682)   #114
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There was nothing dismissive about my earlier posts, I was merely trying to establish someone's status.

the man is the organiser of a national championship. and did not really allude to that too much.

So, his status is a little more established so can be taken as read.

I try and consider a lot of what people write on here, but when you read garbage as posted above, especially when people look at a username and instantly dismiss it. it just makes me even more likely to treat them with contempt.

And also makes you understand how this place was once a very thought provoking area and now is little more than someones hobby
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Old 10 Jan 2017, 22:56 (Ref:3701689)   #115
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We seem to have this Silverstone to loss GP story so often now that no one takes much notice, perhaps if they did not cry wolf so often people would actually take notice
They did lose the GP, to Donington, but that went t!ts up. Bernie probably still feels sore at failing to stiff the BRDC then.
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 00:31 (Ref:3701699)   #116
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Considering Chunder's dismissive and argumentative response to his earlier posts, I actually thought JS's response quite restrained. Even Chunder accepts that he was thinking out loud - not the best basis for a considered discussion....and he does have form for this...I tend to mentally read his username as "chunter" Of course everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but an informed one is so much better...
I am not going to comment one way or another on Chunter's posting style (as it shouldn't matter), but the problem I saw was that Jamie dribbled out details a bit at a time which only fueled the argument. The very specific and worthwhile details in his last post should have been in is first. I think it would have been less tears all around. Of course this is all clear now in hindsight!

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However we're still roughly in the spirit of goodwill, so let's let it go.
Sorry for continuing to post on a sore topic, but I agree.



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Old 11 Jan 2017, 07:44 (Ref:3701737)   #117
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I think they lost the GP to Donington as a bargaining tool, if you remember there were even rumours it might go to Brands and that was even less likely!
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 08:32 (Ref:3701745)   #118
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The latest news from the BRDC is that when Liberty are involved they will take a sympathetic view of Silverstone's position, and the Club is optimistic of retaining the Grand Prix, with improved finances all round.

Some good news for a change. It is even possible the no one will disagree.
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 10:07 (Ref:3701773)   #119
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The latest news from the BRDC is that when Liberty are involved they will take a sympathetic view of Silverstone's position, and the Club is optimistic of retaining the Grand Prix, with improved finances all round.

Some good news for a change. It is even possible the no one will disagree.
Call me an old cynic if you like, but I fear this may be more of an example of hope over experience. I also note that the BRDC having missed their self imposed deadline by which to have sold the venue last October, they are now saying they don't need to sell. We have heard all this before...

On a positive note thay have got £10M from the lottery to convert the hanger building into a heritage centre, as long as they don't squander that as they did with the Wing, they might have half of chance of making that work. I note that this grant is awarded to Silverstone Heritage Ltd that has it's own CEO.
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 11:17 (Ref:3701785)   #120
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Donington have said they will not bid for the GP, even if Silverstone lose it. They quite rightly say they don't want to ruin a great race track
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 12:46 (Ref:3701805)   #121
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 12:55 (Ref:3701807)   #122
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Donington have said they will not bid for the GP, even if Silverstone lose it. They quite rightly say they don't want to ruin a great race track
They should have also added again!
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 13:43 (Ref:3701818)   #123
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 14:59 (Ref:3701838)   #124
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Donington have said they will not bid for the GP, even if Silverstone lose it. They quite rightly say they don't want to ruin a great race track
Finally, some sanity from someone in motorsport.

Having the F1 brigade there would undoubtedly mean they would need to change (ie ruin) the track extensively.
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Old 11 Jan 2017, 15:05 (Ref:3701839)   #125
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it's a smart move too - if all the existing uk circuits rule themselves out, that means f1 has two choices. a grand prix at silverstone that is affordable for the owners, or no grand prix in great britain.

you can imagine the uproar from everyone - teams, sponsors, fans, the press - if it was announced that there was no be no british grand prix...
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