Alonso's strategy

[Born Racer]

What on earth was that about? Even more catastrophic than some of the decisions that occurred in some of Hamilton's crucial championship run-in races (Brazil 2008 and China 2007) and more importantly for the purposes of the thread, inexplicable.

Alonso got jumped by Button on the start. No big deal. He was running ahead of Webber. Then Webber had the tyre problems and pitted. Now as far as I'm aware, Alonso wasn't using huge amounts of time at this point. Why did he feel the need to 'cover' Webber?

Any ideas as to who was responsible for the decision? It may be difficult to find this out. You have to read through the usual PR guff and I'm not sure anyone's said yet. Alonso's known for being a decisive and influential man on strategy, sometimes with some good calls (and therefore potentially sometimes with some bad ones) so just how involved was he in the decision?

Failing to pass Petrov was pretty poor, but it did seem one of the trickier circuits to do this at.

They were way too soft on Ferrari on the BBC today in the forum. I suspect it was because of the end-of-season-esque euphoria and magnanimous consideration of every championship contender's efforts. The focus of the forum show was therefore different from the usual but this merited more scrutiny and criticism. I know all races count, so cocking it up at the end has a way of looking worse despite all races giving the same points, but it was the most terrible race by them this season, possibly worse than the Silverstone decision not to hand back the place to Kubica.

A lot of people knew Vettel had a not too unreasonable chance of the championship today, but not a lot would have thought that this would come without a collision or failure of some kind (such as engine) for Fernando.

[Mr V]

I don't think that Alonso's stratergy was (at the time) too bad, he had to cover off Webber and i'm sure that all of us expected Seb, Lewis and Jenson to pit fairly soon afterwards too.

The stratergy that needs to be called into question is Massa's. Webber was pulled in, Massa immediately went quicker, yet got called in before he could maximise his speed.

[gert]

At the time it seemed like a good decision.

I think Webber went quicker than the leaders after he had pitted (*), and Ferrari probably reacted to that.

(*) That was before he caught and got badly hold up by Alguersuari. Without Alguersuari, Webber might even have passed Alonso there and then.

I hindsight, it didn't work out, but it seemed sensible -- to me -- at the time. I never thought it would be THAT hard to pass someone.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Mr V

The stratergy that needs to be called into question is Massa's. Webber was pulled in, Massa immediately went quicker, yet got called in before he could maximise his speed.

Yes, they should have used Massa to cover Webber, not both cars. Then again, had Alonso been able to pass Petrov, maybe there would have been no problem...

[gert]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Yes, they should have used Massa to cover Webber, not both cars. Then again, had Alonso been able to pass Petrov, maybe there would have been no problem...

Massa was already behind Webber from the start, and was still behind when he followed Webber's strategy. The only way he could cover Webber, was by staying out -- or is that what you mean?


After all, there so many interesting scenario's that could have been...
* Massa pitting under safety car - he was useless at the end of the train anyway
* Webber pitting under safety car (would have put him before Rosberg -- now that could have made a few people nervous!)

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by gert

Massa was already behind Webber from the start, and was still behind when he followed Webber's strategy. The only way he could cover Webber, was by staying out -- or is that what you mean?

Yes. Have him slam a couple more laps in and try to keep Webber honest. Then again, all Alonso needed to do was finish 4th...HE should have covered Rosberg.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Mr V

he had to cover off Webber

With respect Mr V, that's absolutely not true. He had to have Webber there or thereabouts, even a few places in front of him if they were to end up finishing where they were (although I can appreciate they might think there was the risk Webber with his fast Red Bull might get away and grab another one or even two of those if he got past Alonso).

Nonetheless, they completely lost sight of the bigger picture- namely that of Sebastian Vettel. Look how long Button stayed out and made his soft tyres work. Plus Alonso was putting in good times at that point in the race! Maybe they were scared they would lose track of where things would pan out vis-a-vis Webber when the stops were completed were they to let Alonso stay out, but again that wasn't the way they should have thought. If they'd held confidence in Alonso and the car's pace (in a bit of free air as well), they would probably have been fine. That's the silliest thing. They had the car to do the job.

The people working in F1 are very intelligent so I'm not setting out to lambast them, but there are rare occasions where they make errors that are dumbfounding, and this was one of them.

[TrapezeArtist]

What's that saying about "Always expect the unexpected."? No-one expected the Options to recover from the graining phase; but they did. Ferrari assumed the tyres were nearly shot anyway and took the simplistic assumption that covering Webber was the way to go. Perhaps they were so busy looking at Red Bull and McLaren that they didn't notice Rosberg make his early stop.

Remember Mercedes were very racey on prime tyres on Saturday and their qualifying positions were poorer than their true overall pace because they simply couldn't make the options work. Ferrari should have seen the threat from Rosberg; but they didn't. It's easier to forgive them under-estimating Petrov. Let's face it, did any of us expect Petrov to hold off Alonso for half the race like that? I thought he would be either too slow, or would soon make a mistake and let him through. Instead it was Alonso who was too slow and was making the mistakes.

However Ferrari make these sorts of decisions, they didn't get it right today. It wouldn't have happened in Ross Brawn's day. But things are changing since the heady days of Brawn/Byrne/Todt/Schumacher. Perhaps they've gone back to making strategic decisions over a bowl of pasta and a couple of bottles of lambrusco.

[Born Racer]

In my first post, 'Alonso using huge amounts of time' should read 'Alonso losing huge amounts of time'.

[QUOTE=TrapezeArtist;2790706] No-one expected the Options to recover from the graining phase[QUOTE] It surprises me if they didn't. Alonso's didn't seem to be graining that badly anyway.

we did not take into consideration the difficulty of getting past other cars on the track.

That's what Stefano Domenicali says. http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin.../11/11537.html

[Knowlesy]

Truly appalling strategy and it sums up Ferrari since Brawn left. It was a decision of pure panic. All they had to do was sit tight for a bit.

It seemed wrong at the time and so it proved.

[Super Hans]

[Knowlesy]

It's Captain Hindsight!

[ralf fan]

I didn't need hindsight. I didn't have all the data that Ferrari had but even I knew that he shouldn't have stopped. As soon as Webber pitted I thought Ferrari would be at ease and carry on their merry way. Instead they went into full panic mode to cover Webber and I knew it was all over for Alonso then. What a bunch of idiots.

They fell into the trap of trying to do the minimum. i.e. finish 4rth. Sometimes it is easier when you have to get the maximum result and don't have too many options. In a normal race I am sure the Ferrari strategists would have mirrored the guys in front rather than the guys behind to get the maximum result. Heck he was only 5 odd seconds behind Hamilton and lapping at the same speeds and a little faster. They had no reason whatsoever to stop.

I think Ferrari would give the world now to have Ross Brawn back in charge. They have truly become a big team operating like amateurs since he and Todt left.

[RF_Racer]

Red Bull used Webber as a bait (They never did want him to win the DWC) so they pulled him in Ferrari who were foolish enough to pit both Massa and Alonso failed to see that they should have been looking at the guys in front. If they had kept Alonso out who was just behind Button then he would have gone on to win. Must be a gloomy environment today at Maranello.

[BMW_F1]

It didn't make any sense either.. It was a panic call.. Ferrari thought everyone one would start pitting including Vettel/Lewis/Button.. - and they also forgot about the two guys who had pitted under the safety car.. Webber was fast after his pit however this does not indicate that he would have easily overtaken both Petrov and Rosberg who were nonstopping until the end of the race.. Ferrari should have anticipated this and if Alonso's tires were in good shape, if he had stayed out long enough he would have come out in front of those guys..
This poor strategy unfortunately cost him the WDC>.

[BMW_F1]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Yes, they should have used Massa to cover Webber, not both cars. Then again, had Alonso been able to pass Petrov, maybe there would have been no problem...

and Rosberg..

[chillibowl]

do we know for certain that this was a call made on the pit wall? For several races now, and over the course of his career, Alonso has been considered to be the type of driver who wants to make the call on what to do himself.

to be honest i dont know the process Ferrari use. i would assume it is a combination of team and driver, but in this case i dont know who made a call, which in hindsight turned out to be wrong.

but to be fair maybe it was not even hindsight. after the pit crew came out, went back in, came back out, pitted Massa, and then watched him come out behind Webber and lots of traffic, they should have re-evaluated the thinking behind Alonso's stop.

they seemed just plain confused.

[Knowlesy]

I don't think Alonso was necessarily a guy to call the shots, especially when a large part of his career was spent with such strategic brains as Pat Symonds.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I don't think Alonso was necessarily a guy to call the shots, especially when a large part of his career was spent with such strategic brains as Pat Symonds.

Oh, that was a good one.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I don't think Alonso was necessarily a guy to call the shots, especially when a large part of his career was spent with such strategic brains as Pat Symonds.

Yep, same thought.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Oh, that was a good one.

[Paradise City]

It was my understanding that Webber prematurely wore out his rears and was compelled to pit. He had no choice or little choice at best. (He should've pit under the SC but I digress)

Ferrari, thinking this was some shrewd, machiavellian strategy on behalf of Red Bull decided to waddle in after him. If so, that was plain idiocy. If I'm right that is.

[stripedcat]

I suspect that the teams estimated that what with "no re fuelling" this year, that Abu Dhabi would be able to pass on. With Webber pitting, they were expecting him to some how come up the field. Well that is my theory anyway. Either that or Alonso was expecting Petrov to get a radio message to him saying :"Fernando is faster than you. Do you understand?" and perform the "Hockenheim overtake".

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by stripedcat

I suspect that the teams estimated that what with "no re fuelling" this year, that Abu Dhabi would be able to pass on. With Webber pitting, they were expecting him to some how come up the field. Well that is my theory anyway. Either that or Alonso was expecting Petrov to get a radio message to him saying :"Fernando is faster than you. Do you understand?" and perform the "Hockenheim overtake".

I like it. Another peice of history passes into folk-lore and becomes something with its own meanings!

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by stripedcat

I suspect that the teams estimated that what with "no re fuelling" this year, that Abu Dhabi would be able to pass on. With Webber pitting, they were expecting him to some how come up the field. Well that is my theory anyway. Either that or Alonso was expecting Petrov to get a radio message to him saying :"Fernando is faster than you. Do you understand?" and perform the "Hockenheim overtake".

When we heard Alonso's radio I said that the best advice would be just keep the pressure on, you'll pass when he throws it at the scenery. I was delighted to be proved wrong, a drive that elevated Petrov in my estimation, hope he is back next year.