What is the point of Historic racing?

[eclectic]

I have just been reading my copy of Historic Motor Racing News, I hope they will not mind me quoting part of their editorial as I think it a very important part of the debate on the future of racing in the VSCC and elsewhere.

After discussing how original period race cars rarely appear as they are regularly trounced by production cars with a long period of development, CS, the writer, goes on to say;

......"should we be looking to reproduce period grids with all the great variety of cars that once raced together in the past. And should we restructure our rules and Championships to ensure that cars that would have won in period can win today?

The question is a fundamental one. What is the point of historic competition? Should it be more about history, or is it more about competition? Not an easy one to answer."

Then the writer went on to discuss authenticity.

To the question of "what is the point of historic competition?", he seems to have forgotten another very important option, that the competitors who pay the entry fees that make a race meeting possible, have fun and enjoy themselves.

To me this is the crunch issue, I withdrew an accepted entry from a hugely expensive continental event to be held this summer because I did not feel that it would be value for money, ie that the fun/cost equation did not add up.

What do you think, what is the point of it all?

[ScottDay]

I think the cars should be raced as they were and it should be for fun.

[ianselva]

You can't race the cars as they were , because virtually none exist in the same form as when they raced, unless they sat in a museum all that time. As most of the cars in museums would have to rebuilt before they could race and they are mainly the most expensive ones as well you would see Historic racing virtually disappear. The current regs are reasonably tight about about originality and create interesting racing that is enjoyable for the competitors .
like you Eclectic , I no longer race at Nurburgring because the amount of hassle in the paddock outweighs the enjoyment of competing.

[Peter Mallett]

Good question and one I posed in a recent "discussion" with my club's committee.

I think the regs should reflect the competition regs of the championship in period. However there is no getting away from the fact that materials and build quality have improved.

But to "fix" it so that the correct car wins? No to me that would be too false.

People love the cars whether they win or lose. The point is that we race them because we like to do so.

[eclectic]

Actually it was the Le Mans Classic!

[David McKinney]

First define 'historic racing'
At one end of the scale are the attempts to re-create the racing of a bygone era by presenting actual cars from that period exactly as they were back then.
At the other end are races for cars of the type that raced in the period in question.
Before you dismiss the first definition, recall if you will the first 100-mile front-engined GP cars race at Donington in 1988. All replicas and fakes were "not invited", and nor were cars which were known to have been modified too far from their original spec (mainly Lotus 16s with udated suspension designs). Maseratis 250Fs won, Connaughts were close - about how it wuld have been in nineteen-fifty-whatever.
Two problems with that approach. One, it has to be an invitation event - it can never be organised by a committee, with conflicting interests. And it costs a lot of money.

[David McKinney]

I've just discovered there's a limit to the length of posts on this forum - and I'm only halfway through my argument!
To continue...
Later HGPCA 100-mile races were increasingly open to non-original cars and replicas - which makes their content no different from races run by the VSCC or anyone else.
At the other end of the scale are races run by the HSCC in this country and FIA Championship rounds here and elsewhere, in which many of the cars did not race before last year - even types of car which didn't race in period - but which are of the 'type' which might have raced then. I'm mainly talking GT cars and touring-cars here. I do not personally regard such events as 'historic racing', though they have their own validity.
Of course, most so-called historic racing falls somewhere between, with a mix of genuine period cars and more recent re-creations.
And I haven't even touched on 'specials' built the year before last

[David McKinney]

Just realised, I forgot the point of all this
The point of Historic Racing is to allow me and others like me to see a race as near as possible to what it would have been in its original manifestation, whether a pre-war voiturette race, a 1950s or 1960s GP, or a sportscar car or touring-car event from another era.
"As near as possible" is they key as far as I'm personally concerned. The further away from that I get, the less I like it.
But I would still rather watch any sort of historic racing, by any definition, than modern stuff.
If the participants get pleasure from it - and most of them seem to - then so much the better.
I'll go now....

[Andrew Fellowes]

David as you know this cropped up not long ago on Atlas under Historic Passports and Don Capps made some interesting obersvations on George Washinton's axe.

By defintion Racing is the constant search for improvement where as Historic racing is to freeze a period of time. The races results are not important, it isn’t real motor racing. So should the same cars still win today? Who cares, it doesn't matter.

The answer is it should be fun, instead of a static exhibit in a museum this is a live exhibit. The problem comes with why the drivers do it. Some are pot hunters, and some are glory seekers and others, well they do it just for fun.

The philosophy in Oz is “as it was so it shall be” but even that comes unstuck when you try to keep wings & slicks away from treaded & naked. I am sure that when I joined the HSCC some 30 years ago the aim was that cars should be as they were first built, but I've never seen so much cheating! A recent spot check at Oran Park revealed that it still goes on!!

Its about 70 pounds to enter an event here for 3 six lap races. Another 40 pounds for a pit garage and the same again if you want to test on the Friday. 150 quid all up. (oh & about 1,000 kms to get there!!!!)

[Andrew Fellowes]

Aw heck, blown the time limit to correct the spelling!!

Just seen one other point, The suggestion that the cars comply with the regs for the period that they raced in. On the face of it great, but now we are back to developing the cars within those rules and that’s expensive and pointless.

Here you have to prove that car ran with that type of engine & that type of gearbox etc etc for the year you choose. Example my car ran F2 in 71 & 2. I can run FVA as per ‘71 or BDE ’72 but not BDG even though those engines were used in F2 by the end of ’72 because my car never ran one., Very tough, but it means that you don’t get the sort of development that has plagued the Euro F2.

[john ruston]

The Oldtimers at the Ring is as far as we are concerned a sad event.They want to designate which drivers can take part,which cars can race etc.After six years we will not return.The Le Mans classic is a different story it was the best event two years ago and we will be back with three cars. Whatever makes your boat float,its only money and none of its important,we all go back to reality on Monday.

[eclectic]

At the end of the day, if an event can't attract entrants with the right cars, bearing in mind they have to pay to entertain the crowd, there is no point in trying to run an event.

It has to be fun and exciting for the driver/entrant first and formost.

Everything else ultimately is secondary, if the lack of crowds and greedy circuit management lead to high entry fees, or poor organisation make it seem too much of a hassle/no fun then drivers will not turn up.

For example, I would love to see grids at VSCC meetings that reflected period grids at Brooklands or wherever, but there is little chance, it is now dominated by specials, many are wonderful creations and very effective, but if that is what people want to race, for whatever reason, then that is what is on the grid.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by eclectic
I would love to see grids at VSCC meetings that reflected period grids at Brooklands or wherever, but there is little chance, it is now dominated by specials, many are wonderful creations and very effective, but if that is what people want to race, for whatever reason, then that is what is on the grid.

Absolutely no quarrel with that at all - as long as no-one passes it off as historic racing, or vintage racing

[john ruston]

Its astonishing that VSCC has grids of last weeks specials and no correct historic sports cars when Bob Wood can organise 40 proper cars for BRDC at short notice.The Fox and Nichol is now a race for specials.Lets hope the new Pre War event takes off although there is no race in U.K. To many vested interests.

[eclectic]

I intend to compete at Assen & Nurburgring with the new series run by Duncan Wiltshire, but not sadly at Spa, it conflicts with my daughter deciding to get married, terribly bad training on my part!

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by eclectic
.Everything else ultimately is secondary, if the lack of crowds and greedy circuit management lead to high entry fees, or poor organisation make it seem too much of a hassle/no fun then drivers will not turn up.

Drastic but simple remedy, move to Australia. Best run events I’ve ever been to, and so, so friendly.

p.s. Lloyds & Scottish 25 years ago they paid you to turn up! -well how times change.

[zefarelly]

I dont know much about many of the other seires and their rules and regulations, but if you prepare a car, of any age, to its original homologation papers and its properly scrutinised then the field should be as even as it ever was, but then like now, the works/wealthy had the best engineering avAILABLE and the rest of us try our best with what we've got and what we can afford. the Historics still race hard, although some probably more than others, it all depends on the value of the machinery to the owner/driver I guess, although many of the cars I see are replicas of the original, either because of the scarcity/value or just becasue like my car, no originals exist

[Peter Mallett]

As I understand it you have built your car to the championship regulations and as such whether you use period components or new, you still comply.

I think the basis of this thread is the tendency of people to run "modern" engines etc. in historic bodywork. Thus making it a sillhuette championship.

However I still see no point if the races are taylored to allow a certain type of car to wuin just because it did so in 1930/50/60 etc.

That misses the point entirely. And the point of course is Historic Racing!!!!!!!!!!!

[zefarelly]

well theres another grey area really . . . .I've built mine to period regulations and the original homologation forms, If I'd built to the HRSR championship regulations I could have mede more mods (some of which are period) but it may restrict the amount of comps I can enter, as well as putting me in a different class.

as for hot rods and different engines in silhouttes. . . .I think they should be in a different class altogether, but not banned outright as theyre highly antertaining to watch

[Peter Mallett]

Ah now you're talking Appj 1967 (I think). That was a bit funny because it encompassed things like Porsche 911s etc. But nevertheless the regs are valid.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
As I understand it you have built your car to the championship regulations and as such whether you use period components or new, you still comply.

I think the basis of this thread is the tendency of people to run "modern" engines etc. in historic bodywork. Thus making it a sillhuette championship.

However I still see no point if the races are taylored to allow a certain type of car to wuin just because it did so in 1930/50/60 etc.

That misses the point entirely. And the point of course is Historic Racing!!!!!!!!!!!

As a fan of the Historics I know that the old girls have benefited from some modern fettling and materials. Same for the vehicles from the 60's and 70's there is obviously a lot more that can be done to make them faster and more reliable than when they were first raced.

So what?

Its not rocket science, if you are stuck in a time warp or just love the vehicles from a particular period then that is the point. You go and look or participate and you enjoy the experience with others having F. U. N. Its a bit like the folk who dress up in chain mail and armour, why question something that requires no exlanation - just appreciate their handiwork and the visual experience.

Life is short and then ya die!!

[James Murray]

One of the major difficulties from what I can see, is that series/championship/club rules are too slack and often not enforced. All to often a blind eye is turned to the lastest tweek/model to get more cars on the grid. Where you have clear rules and efficient policing there isnt a problem, take Historic Formula Ford or Formula Junior, both these series represent what the cars were like originally, and they're booming with interest. Races are always close and grids full due to the fact that the rules are clear and strict and its impossible to buy an advantage because cheating/rule bending isn't permitted.

[ss_collins]

I've just got a Historic racer (Austro-Porsche Formula Vee), but I looked at the period spec and realised that to adapt the car to modern spec but retain a lot of Historic 'features'. The car looks like a 1968 racer, right down to original look dials on the dash. The chassis is original but the car should be on a par with the 2004 built jobs.

Why? some say I've ruined a historic car, but my take is this - they cylinder block, gearbox, and essenstial bits are all similar if not the same, but more tuned - 85 - 95Bhp is far more appealing than 35 - 40bhp.

[fangio]

Some events are expensive, especially when you consider that's the drivers of these historic cars that put up the show for the spectators.
Maybe we should get the spectators to pay a bit more for their tickets.....
On the other hand, the Le Mans Classic is fantastic, if you have a proper car that ran at Le Mans it's a must.
We'll be back with a strong Team (incl. John Ruston!) with proper period cars.
I agree that on some events the cost/quality ratio is way out, but there are so many that most of us will choose the best for normal money.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
just appreciate their handiwork and the visual experience.

Er, y y yes, except that when you walk into a museum, I get a buzz from ‘the real thing’ –I rely on the experts to show me the Mona Lisa NOT some photocopy by Quick Print. & no I aint smarrt enuf to tell the difference.

James, Agreed.