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Old 18 Sep 2017, 21:08 (Ref:3768417)   #5176
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Crazy_Pigal should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I haven't read through all 345 pages of this thread, so forgive me if someone else has suggested this, but...
All our defecting LMP1 manufacturers (plus many others) are going to formula E & will be developing state of the art 250kW ish electric powertrains, so why not stipulate the the hybrid element of the LMP-H regs must conform to these FE regulations & be completely independent of the combustion engine... so you could end up with an Audi, Porsche, Jaguar, whoever supplying a powertrain (& their badge) on your LMP1-H on the front axle (let's assume, but could be rear if your name is Nissan!) & a convention ICE on the rear. The battery pack would be much smaller than FE as it'll only be doing let's say 8MJ per lap not a full race. You could even say that the powertrain must be homogolated for FE. What I'm getting at is that if a manufacturer can split their development costs over more than one race series then it has to be cheaper, even more so if they already have a powertrain being actively developed? or am I missing something?
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Old 18 Sep 2017, 21:11 (Ref:3768419)   #5177
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AoB Special Stage should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAoB Special Stage should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
That would be interesting, but the deployment requirements of a hybrid unit and a full EV one are distinct. It would most likely end like Group C/F1, with one engine (Pug then) being great in one trim, but sub-optimal in the other.

Last edited by AoB Special Stage; 18 Sep 2017 at 21:17. Reason: sorry, I had concern about length. I got lazy though.
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Old 18 Sep 2017, 21:35 (Ref:3768423)   #5178
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Other than out of control costs and the deck being heavily stacked in favor of full factory outfits, an other complaint/oddity that I have about these regs is that even in the sprint races, the drop off in race pace vs qualifying for fast laps is bigger than I've seen in a while.

In the pre-big hybrid days, it wasn't uncommon for fastest race lap anywhere to be within about a second or so of any cars' qualifying time. Now, like at COTA, there was about a 4 second gap between pole time and fastest race lap.

I know that a lot of that's down to hybrid deployment to get one or two fast laps in qualifying and that it's very difficult to do the same on a consistent basis in the race, but I'm surprised that the gap between qualifying times and race laps is now as big as it seems to be.
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Old 22 Sep 2017, 03:24 (Ref:3769194)   #5179
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Another complaint, this time about the ACO not wanting teams to run something that by now everyone and their brother has on production cars.

I'd like to see LMP1s be allowed to run something similar to the Atkinson cycle or the Budack cycle, but there's one problem. Both (especially the Budack cycle) require variable valve timing, something the ACO doesn't want teams to run on their engines, though almost everyone makes mass produced engines with it.

This is one area that I think the ACO need to get with the program on the engine front.
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Old 22 Sep 2017, 16:48 (Ref:3769295)   #5180
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Now that VW is using something similiar that Toyota used in 1997, now this is problem

We already had that variable valve timing arguments years ago.

Problem with those two valve tricks is that they are used under low rpm and fairly low load, as far as I know all those types of engines switch to otto cycle under high rpm and full load.
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Old 22 Sep 2017, 17:50 (Ref:3769314)   #5181
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And the Miller cycle existed before Toyota's version, which is just the Miller cycle without a supercharger.

And to say that VVT or the Atkinson/Budack cycle is worthless on a racing engine is oversimplifying things. DFI is pretty much useless at full load for fuel economy or performance gains, and even at the slowest tracks you're still going to spend a majority of the time at or near full throttle. But everyone in racing is now running DFI, something that Audi did over 15 years ago but didn't catch on until recent years in racing.
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Old 22 Sep 2017, 20:26 (Ref:3769341)   #5182
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TF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I hope you guys did the wec survey. It took a while, but it had interesting questions. I voiced my opinion about lmp1 becoming something more than just for manufacturers. I also want it to become a class with GOOD looking and sounding cars.
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Old 22 Sep 2017, 20:28 (Ref:3769343)   #5183
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I hope you guys did the wec survey. It took a while, but it had interesting questions. I voiced my opinion about lmp1 becoming something more than just for manufacturers. I also want it to become a class with GOOD looking and sounding cars.
Link here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151758
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Old 22 Sep 2017, 21:42 (Ref:3769352)   #5184
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Unfortunately I forgot to mention that we desperately needed variable valve timing of some sort or another.

Last edited by Adam43; 22 Sep 2017 at 21:43. Reason: Removed comment on the survey.
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Old 22 Sep 2017, 21:42 (Ref:3769353)   #5185
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Good link. Let's discuss there.
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Old 23 Sep 2017, 02:44 (Ref:3769374)   #5186
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YZFrider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridYZFrider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Another complaint, this time about the ACO not wanting teams to run something that by now everyone and their brother has on production cars.

I'd like to see LMP1s be allowed to run something similar to the Atkinson cycle or the Budack cycle, but there's one problem. Both (especially the Budack cycle) require variable valve timing, something the ACO doesn't want teams to run on their engines, though almost everyone makes mass produced engines with it.

This is one area that I think the ACO need to get with the program on the engine front.
What's to stop someone from developing a real Atkinson engine. I glanced over the technical refs and one is not excluded.
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Old 23 Sep 2017, 03:02 (Ref:3769376)   #5187
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The problem is that stuff like the Miller/Atkinson/Budank cycle engine, the part where the intake valves hang open is optimized for part load. When the engine is at full throttle is goes back to the conventional Otto cycle.

Hence why VVT is used on such engines, and it's a technology that's currently illegal in ACO rules series, though even old fashioned pushrod engines are sold with VVT.

My point with that is that even at Le Mans, where you spend over 80% of the lap at or near full throttle, there's still and advantage that can be gained. As I pointed out, the major gains with DFI is at part load/part throttle, but it was worth while enough for Audi Sport tor run it on the R8, and in the years since road cars were widely using DFI by 2008, though it did take longer for it to be used on race cars in spite of it's proven advantages.
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Old 23 Sep 2017, 03:55 (Ref:3769377)   #5188
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YZFrider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridYZFrider should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The first Atkinson cycle engines didn't need VVT. There was a mechanical linkage on the rod and crankshaft that created the unique property of the Atkinson cycle: short compression to long expansion stroke.
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Old 27 Sep 2017, 22:07 (Ref:3770174)   #5189
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TF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Dsc has a little information about the Dallara lmp1 and it's lmp2 'joker'
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...ns-in-lmp.html
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Old Yesterday, 17:13 (Ref:3775276)   #5190
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http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/n...d-in-december/

Seems that the ACO want to go in the direction of the original GT1 class or maybe DPI for LMP1
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