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Old 17 Mar 2018, 09:22 (Ref:3808489)   #5501
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Let 'em run what they got. They obviously can go faster with some breaks and/or give some penalties to newer cars like a Ford or Toyota GTP. The Mazda was recently given a 15kg weight break, and the Rebellion is going to be based on the Oreca lmp2 running 833kg. So it's a matter of whether they feel like bop is something suddenly unacceptable imo. We'll see. But Ford is huge, and if they get their way, maybe Toyota comes too running as Lexus?
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 09:30 (Ref:3808490)   #5502
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Let 'em run what they got. They obviously can go faster with some breaks or give some penalties to newer cars like a Ford or Toyota GTP. The Mazda was recently given a 15kg weight break, and the Rebellion is going to be based on the Oreca lmp2 running 833kg. So it's a matter of whether they feel like bop is something suddenly unacceptable imo. We'll see. But Ford is huge, and if they get their way, maybe Toyota comes too running as Lexus?
What you mean, a class mixed of GTP, P1 Non-Hybrid and DPi running all together in performance balanced mess?

That would be absolutely horrendous, a total mess of epic proportions.

Plus like I've said before, if you can theoretically win Le Mans with cheap sticker-badged customer spec car with zero development required as it's all bopped, no-one's gonna bother with expensive P1 chassis of your own. Because there's no incentive whatsoever.
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 12:03 (Ref:3808513)   #5503
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Someone like Toyota might. But I agree, no BoP mess in LMP1 please. LMP2 was supposed to be free of it as well but even that is starting to crumble.
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 14:40 (Ref:3808548)   #5504
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Someone like Toyota might. But I agree, no BoP mess in LMP1 please. LMP2 was supposed to be free of it as well but even that is starting to crumble.
Yeah I think Toyota and Ford might, for marketing purposes, but all the non-hybrid P1s would instantly bail out and just run same cars as the others, ie those cheap stock P2s with different headlights and customer engine slapped into them, instantly transforming them to "OEM cars" by badge-engineering. Everyone would complain all the time and you'd have bop changes between practice and qualifying sessions, but I guess some of the IMSA teams and fans would be happy...?

It's the same thing as if in F1 the FIA would allow spec F2 Dallaras into the grid and to be able to artificially complete for overall win. They'd allow small aesthetic modifications to how the wings would look like, thus enabling the teams technically still be "constructors", but effectively it'd mean just rebranding the Dallaras as what the teams wish to call them. Everyone would instantly give up on building expensive and innovative F1 chassis of their own (except maybe like Ferrari and Mercedes for similar marketing/historical reasons as said above) and stick their engines and 100 dollar wing modifications and different paint jobs into the spec F2 Dallaras, trusting FIA to give them power to win.

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Old 17 Mar 2018, 18:26 (Ref:3808606)   #5505
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What you mean, a class mixed of GTP, P1 Non-Hybrid and DPi running all together in performance balanced mess?

That would be absolutely horrendous, a total mess of epic proportions.

Plus like I've said before, if you can theoretically win Le Mans with cheap sticker-badged customer spec car with zero development required as it's all bopped, no-one's gonna bother with expensive P1 chassis of your own. Because there's no incentive whatsoever.
No, I mean they can keep their DPi but run it to lmp1 private regs like currently. So fuel flow, 833kg and whatever else they get like the aero, while the others (Ford, Toyota etc.) 'GTP' cars run to their equalized rules.
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 18:41 (Ref:3808609)   #5506
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No, I mean they can keep their DPi but run it to lmp1 private regs like currently. So fuel flow, 833kg and whatever else they get like the aero, while the others (Ford, Toyota etc.) 'GTP' cars run to their equalized rules.
But again, why would anyone bother with regular nonhybrid P1 if you can do the same exact thing with cheaper performance balanced spec car you don't have to develop at all? That also has the added benefit of (camouflaged) OEM association
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 18:51 (Ref:3808615)   #5507
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But again, why would anyone bother with regular nonhybrid P1 if you can do the same exact thing with cheaper performance balanced spec car you don't have to develop at all? That also has the added benefit of (camouflaged) OEM association
Right now there's semi-factory teams in DPi, not quite full factory backed. So if they keep it the same then it prevents them from doing a full factory DPi/non-hybrid lmp1. They can supply engines and tech stuff but private teams run them. Penske isn't really a factory squad technically and neither is Joest or Wayne Taylor, but they probably get some support. If there's an incentive to run a hybrid or GTP style car (like fuel efficiency) there may be more takers. They just need to make sure it's not allowing guys like VAG to come in with hundreds of millions to blow everyone away.
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 19:11 (Ref:3808622)   #5508
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Right now there's semi-factory teams in DPi, not quite full factory backed. So if they keep it the same then it prevents them from doing a full factory DPi/non-hybrid lmp1. They can supply engines and tech stuff but private teams run them. Penske isn't really a factory squad technically and neither is Joest or Wayne Taylor, but they probably get some support. If there's an incentive to run a hybrid or GTP style car (like fuel efficiency) there may be more takers. They just need to make sure it's not allowing guys like VAG to come in with hundreds of millions to blow everyone away.
That wasn't really what I was talking about (it was that why would anyone bother building their own nonhybrid P1 or even purchasing customer chassis if you can just do it via DPi route) but since you brought this up let me address it... that's exactly what would be - among other reasons - wrong with DPi at LM, those sort-of-but-not-really-factory teams running spec cars that are rebadged as actual road car manufacturers... ie they wouldn't be called Orecas or whatever relatively obscure, but actual brands people recognize. "Hey cool that's a Nissan LMP car, it's so much better than their last one"

If those are allowed to go for overall wins with half-assed efforts instead of full blown factory campaigns with their self built cars, that brings whole can of new worms to the table... because then there's expectancy for the future that you can represent manufacturer with more or less badge-engineering and be 'entitled' to win with such. Much like performance balancing and pro-am structure are now expected everywhere because they've been drilled to the head of the participants so deeply that they can't even remember how it was before them, not so long ago...
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 19:57 (Ref:3808626)   #5509
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I don't like it either, but that's probably the best scenario in order to get the cars to run both series. I think if the manufacturers supply engines and give some tech to these guys it's about equal to private lmp1's. What I really think needs to happen is that these teams foot the bill if they want to run DPi. It shouldn't be pure Acura or Cadillac. It should be a Penske Oreca Acura. Ginetta said something similar before about how they could change the appearance to match to a manufacturer. So if a manufacturer wants to enter right now and not use a hybrid they might not be allowed but with this they would be. They might have to appease DPi guys but if it means that there's lmp1's/GTP's in IMSA too that would have to be the settlement.
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 20:21 (Ref:3808632)   #5510
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If those are allowed to go for overall wins with half-assed efforts instead of full blown factory campaigns with their self built cars, that brings whole can of new worms to the table...
These so called "self built" cars. I think your concept doesn't really exist. Many manufacturers are just doing a much more comprehensive job to make you think they "self built" something. What does it even mean to be "self built". The concept of self built really falls over in the prototype class and in top level motorsport. The only category that gets a pass is the GT's. As those are fundamentally derived from the core competency (ehem...) of the manufacturer. With the rumoured Supra GTE, did Toyota "self build" that? When the production car was codeveloped with BMW....Would that bother you?

Nissan LMP1-
Ben Bowlby's design group in Indianopolis, and a Cosworth TwinTurbo V6...

Renault F1 - That Enstone facility has changed ownership a handful of times. Renault, Lotus, Benneton etc. All while retaining, hiring, mixing and mingling employees from all over motorsport.

Acura ARX P2s and P1 - Wirth research (independent) aero with the Honda powerplant and HPD support for build and support.

Mercedes F1 - Sure there are a few Mercedes road car division employees (and probably new hires), but for a facility in Brackley that used to be Brawn, and Honda, and so on....they didn't just sack all of the employees. Many have been working in the facility since before it became Mercedes F1. So does Mercedes "self build" their F1 car?

Puegeot, Audi, Porsche etc. All the company has done is hire a bunch of people working on other areas of motorsport, and sometimes from within their road car division to develop these race cars and run the race teams. Why do you consider those efforts "self built". Just because everyone was given the same uniform to wear at the race?

Even though GT's get the semi pass. Aston Martin - Prodrive, Ferrari - Michelotto, Corvette - Pratt & Miller.... The manufacturers do not own any of these companies. They effectively slap their name on those race cars. Other than the frame (from production) and engine....Which really isn't all that different to DPI.

What do you think it means to be "self built"? Genuinely trying to get something productive out of this. I'm not sure that you are actually opposed to the DPi concept, even though you say you are. Because it's really no different to many of the things you probably considered to be "self built".

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Old 17 Mar 2018, 21:23 (Ref:3808645)   #5511
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Isn't that difference pretty simple? Building a car yourself (or letting other people build it) from scratch versus buying a completed car anyone else can buy too and modifying it.
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 21:58 (Ref:3808658)   #5512
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Interesting stuff about "self built" issue

among recent lmp1 manufacturers, guess that peugeot and porsche have been the ones who basically made ther car "in house".

Audi lmp1 chassis was made by dallara first and ycom later. Toyota chassis and aero is developed by TMG in germany, powertrain by toyota motors in japan and hybrid hardware by other japanese firms.

The less "self built" car was lola - aston.
Chassis supplied by lola, bodywork by prodrive, engine by ford.
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 23:14 (Ref:3808683)   #5513
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How is the TS050 not completely in house when Toyota Motorsport has been a division of the company for 25 years and the hybrid hardware comes from the same suppliers as Porsche, Audi, and/or their road cars?
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Old 17 Mar 2018, 23:38 (Ref:3808689)   #5514
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Isn't that difference pretty simple? Building a car yourself (or letting other people build it) from scratch versus buying a completed car anyone else can buy too and modifying it.
At some level, every race car is just a parts bin of things that are "bought" from a supplier, and fit to the car. Electronics, fuel systems, drinks bottle, brakes, wheels, tires, and so on. Why should being able to purchase a turnkey vehicle and mod it be any different? I don't see how the former, is any more worthy.
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 02:40 (Ref:3808760)   #5515
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At some level, every race car is just a parts bin of things that are "bought" from a supplier, and fit to the car. Electronics, fuel systems, drinks bottle, brakes, wheels, tires, and so on.
You seem to grossly underestimate the necessary skill to turn a 'parts bin' into an actual car.
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 03:37 (Ref:3808778)   #5516
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I think something like 85% of Toyota's car is all their own doing. I bet the Ginetta is mostly their own but uses a Mechachrome engine. I get Chiana's words, he means a car designed or built for a specific team/manufacturer vs a run of the mill Oreca or Ligier lmp(2).
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 10:37 (Ref:3808834)   #5517
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What EffectiveSprinkles said.

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I don't like it either, but that's probably the best scenario in order to get the cars to run both series. I think if the manufacturers supply engines and give some tech to these guys it's about equal to private lmp1's. What I really think needs to happen is that these teams foot the bill if they want to run DPi. It shouldn't be pure Acura or Cadillac. It should be a Penske Oreca Acura. Ginetta said something similar before about how they could change the appearance to match to a manufacturer. So if a manufacturer wants to enter right now and not use a hybrid they might not be allowed but with this they would be. They might have to appease DPi guys but if it means that there's lmp1's/GTP's in IMSA too that would have to be the settlement.
I rather have them not be in both series then. I'm tired of 'compromises' and regulations that aren't supposed to co-function jammed together with comical circus effect. So much more to lose than gain
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 12:51 (Ref:3808855)   #5518
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You seem to grossly underestimate the necessary skill to turn a 'parts bin' into an actual car.

No...

It also takes skill to run a spec car as a race team in a full season....Everything requires "skill"

And whose "skill" is it? When the teams just hire a bunch of ex F1 and Motorsport "spec employees" to design the car. What's the difference between that and just buying the spec car?


It seems the actual issue isn't the self made problem, but more that people can't get over someone not spending 100million dollars to win the LM24. Only if you are spending 100million + even as a complete idiot wasting design and track time and resources until you've spent 100 million, is that somehow worthy of winning LM.

It doesn't take "skill" to spend 100million dollars.
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 12:52 (Ref:3808856)   #5519
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And whose "skill" is it? When the teams just hire a bunch of ex F1 and Motorsport "spec employees" to design the car. What's the difference between that and just buying the spec car?
...a lot. Like, a huge amount. Like, we don't have enough server space on this forum to discuss it all.
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 13:00 (Ref:3808860)   #5520
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...a lot. Like, a huge amount. Like, we don't have enough server space on this forum to discuss it all.


My point is we make a big deal out of something that is quite superficial.

When Genii were the owners of the Lotus F1 team, did Geniii do anything other than throw money at it? The operation and people at Enstone already existed. They bought a functioning F1 operation. If you think about it, why is that any different in terms of end result to just buying a customer spec Ferrari? They still haven't done anything.

And the same applies to many LMP and GT teams. They effectively buy "spec experts" most of the time. The idea of buying something that is "spec" still exist. It's just being done at a different level. So if that's the reason that people don't like DPi, then it wouldn't be consistent to like things we have seen in the past.

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Old 18 Mar 2018, 13:09 (Ref:3808863)   #5521
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Buying a product is completely different to hiring people to design a product. You can apply that to any level.

You need a mouse for your PC. You could buy one. Or you could hire a team of engineers with the background in making a mouse to design, test, manufacture and support your custom built mouse. "If you think about it, what's the difference? You're just hiring spec experts."
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 14:21 (Ref:3808872)   #5522
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Buying a product is completely different to hiring people to design a product. You can apply that to any level.

I think this is where we fundamentally differ. My opinion is that engineering service is a product that can be bought and/or sold. And that's consistent with the way that it's treated in the real world. Through contracting, consulting, and/or buying up something that already exist. And that's the way many of these recognized "self built" teams operated....
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 14:27 (Ref:3808877)   #5523
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Of course engineering services are a product that can be bought and sold. But just because it's a product that can be bought, it doesn't mean it's the same as buying a finished product. The scale of the tasks we're describing can barely be compared to each other.

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What's the difference between that and just buying the spec car?
To answer your question - everything. Everything is different. From the very building you go to work in, to the product everybody uses at the circuit, and the methods you'll use to achieve the performance from the product. Quite literally, every single thing in the team will change. Everything. Except for the carpets - those might transfer over.
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 16:31 (Ref:3808900)   #5524
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Of course engineering services are a product that can be bought and sold. But just because it's a product that can be bought, it doesn't mean it's the same as buying a finished product. The scale of the tasks we're describing can barely be compared to each other.



To answer your question - everything. Everything is different. From the very building you go to work in, to the product everybody uses at the circuit, and the methods you'll use to achieve the performance from the product. Quite literally, every single thing in the team will change. Everything. Except for the carpets - those might transfer over.


I'm not trying to be funny or overly literal. If you choose to look at it at the level of the carpets, and the space that you sit in, then sure everything is different. But you know that's not where I'm going with this as pointed to by everything I've said above.

For the company, or owner, it is the same as buying the finished product. For the owner, all he or she has done is contribute money to get an end result. So why should the owner somehow be perceived as more worthy of winning LM because they bought engineering services vs the final product.

That's what we are addressing. People are opposed to DPI because of the spec chassis that is purchased by the OEM. As opposed to when the OEM has simply done a no strings attached engineering services purchase (the FWD Nissan LMP1 is the least subtle of the examples). They are the same when it comes to the contribution of the manufacturer. No one was up in arms when Nissan had Ben Bowlby and Cosworth make an LMP1 car for them (other then the drive layout)
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Old 18 Mar 2018, 16:37 (Ref:3808901)   #5525
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For the company, or owner, it is the same as buying the finished product. For the owner, all he or she has done is contribute money to get an end result. So why should the owner somehow be perceived as more worthy of winning LM because they bought engineering services vs the final product.
Because they had to work through significantly more problems and create more solutions and put in more work.

I know you're not being funny or difficult, and I hope I'm not coming off as rude. But I think you're massively underestimating the task of creating a vehicle from scratch.

I imagine there would be a few team owners who would raise an eyebrow at the "only contributed money" comment.
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