Brock death brings call for rule change... "and here come the do-gooders"

[dsg]

Originally Posted by racer69

Tarmac rallies are common right round the world, granted they are more dangerous than circuit racing, but they aren't anymore dangerous than hurtling through the forrest on an ARC event are they?

Many of the Targa cars are more dangerous. The Targa Tasmania and Targa West regulations don't required the vehicles to meet as high a standard of safety as the ARC.

Targas are not significantly more or less dangerous than other road racing as long as the course is chosen carefully and good notes are provided.

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by emjaya

That could apply to your V8's too, Dick, some would say their getting a little too fast and powerfull.

Of course he does.Too many people are turning away from racing on circuits like his to run in the Targa's and Dutton rallies.

Oh the Irony....

Nay, the hypocrisy.


Let's see, I seem to remember as but a whipper-snipper, (yes I had a mowing round as a lad) Grandfather Cranker taking me upon his knee & telling me all about a bloke called Lex Davison....

"That Davison was a bloody good steerer", Grand-pa would say.

"Poor bugger bought it at that Sandown place, bloody dangerous track....killed far too many, that place did" he'd muse....



http://www.lexdavison.com/

"Lex Davison, racing driver, businessman, husband, father and raconteur, was a larger than life character, who had taken on 'legendary' status prior to his tragic death at the wheel of his Brabham racing car at Sandown Park in February 1965, whilst contesting the international Tasman series.

Lex Davison still remains the only driver to have won four Australian Grand Prix. This is backed up by three Australian Hillclimb championships, the original winner of the Australian Gold Star, Around Australia rallies and legendary performances at the wheel of the massive Ford Galaxie."

Now forgive me for this, but Davo, DAVO, DAVO; don't spout to the press, just because you are Davo.

Australia already has Hugh Wirth, AND Neil Harvey, as rent-a-comment.

Davo, leave it alone, and please consider the two paragraphs above; this might be closer to home than you want to admit.



Peter Geoffery Brock understood as much as anybody the risks involved in the sport he loved.

45 + years as one of the best ever let him know more than ever, the message on the back of your ticket isn't bulls#!t:

"Motor racing is dangerous".




RIP, Brockie.

[Langers]

Originally Posted by woodpecker

So in effect Langers, you are saying that we should be happy using the standards from touring cars twenty years ago as the measuring stick for safety?

No, I am saying that it is hipocritcal for Johnson to say that Tarmac Rallying is too dangerous when he was only too happy to partake of a sport with similar or perhaps greater danger in the past.

[Langers]

The other thing is that a lot of the Targa cars are daily drivers for road use, and as we all know, full circuit-style cages aren't legal for road use. Introduce a requirement for full on welded cages and I think you'd see a sharp decline in entry numbers. Many of these guys are on very tight budgets and can't afford to have the car just sitting there for most of the year.

This is an amateur sport that very occasionally attracts some professionals. Remember that when talking about expensive and restrictive safety measures.

[BootsOntheSide]

Outright banning of the sport would be ludicrous, but there are things which can be done to imrove the safety without harming the show. Kit cars are an area to look at - by their nature they aren't as structurally rigid as most cars.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Didnt Dick Johnson land over the side of an embankment in Targa Tasmania one year?

Didnt Dick Johnson land over teh side on an embankment in the trees at Mt Panorama one year?

Teh only diference tween Dickies "Greenstuff Hardies Heroes" Crash at Bathurst and Peters tragedy is ... about 2 metres

[johnny yuma]

The only people who are qualified to know how dangerous Targa or any other Speed event are would be people like Johnson,Richards,Brock who have competed in them.If some"accept the risks" it only goes to prove the risks are very real.If someone like Johnson whose courage is beyond doubt throws in the towel perhaps it is a sign of "growing up"--it is ironic some on this forum who
scoff at the idea of a critical look at Targa suggest "grow up"

Why have roll bars,helmets or scrutineering if you follow that cavalier philosophy?Years ago I argued with a young lady who thought compulsory helmets on motor bikes, which came in in the early seventies,was a good idea.I THOUGHT THEN IT WAS AN INFRINGMENT ON PERSONAL CHOICE. She put to me that your right to die was unfair on those who loved you-straight away I agreed she was right.

Dick Johnson hit a similar size tree to Brocky,head on in that sickening televised impact at the top of Conrod.The hazard is no more,but even 25 years ago circuit race vehicle safety saved him--just.I personally cannot say but as Brock's co driver said of the Targa West those endless ranks of gum trees right beside the goat track of a blacktop strip were going by awful quick.

[1200Datto27]

Originally Posted by BlueMax

The car had a cage but no side bars. I don't think side intrusion bars would have helped in Peter's case.

No bars, as can be seen in this photo from Racer Magazine (Issue 3, July 2006)

[inpitlane]

The mainstream media has spent all weekend looking for "the smoking gun" in Brocky's crash. Channel Nine in particular were most keen. I spent a good part of the weekend answering stupid questions from journalists who appeared to have done their "motorsport" research for the story by watching "Days of Thunder"
All they wanted was to try and find something, anything that Brock might have said in his interview with me that they could take out of context and beat up into a scandal.
When I told one producer at Nine that Brocky's car had some of Australia's best race engineering behind it such as Mike Borland who produces the Spectrum Formula Ford his question was "Has anybody recently been killed in a Spectrum?
They've tried the car, the road, the event, fatigue. Possibly the only area that has not been looked at yet, but I expect will come up in any inquest will be was he wearing a HANS device and if not why not. As to what Brock thought of both the event and the car, if they watch the show tomorrow night they'll be in no doubt at all.

[Senna05]

It's a provable statistical fact that more people die playing RUGBY UNION than racing cars per year.....

So we go calling for weight restrictions or height restrictions or limb restrictions on Rugby?

Let's be sensible!!! If I am sewing, I accept the risk that I may stab my finger. If I jump into a Targa rally, I accept that I may spin, catch fire or hit a tree. These guys know what they are getting into, and banning or restricting the sport is REDICULOUS!!!!!

I will however concede that they may want to look at arm-co's at some corners as they do at the majority of hillclimbs....

[racer69]

In many ways some in the media circles seem to have forgotton the man behind the wheel was Peter Brock. If he had any misgivings about the car at all, not only would he have voiced it (privately to the car constructor of course), they would have been carried out, or he would not have been in it for Targa Tassie, let alone Targa West.

Originally Posted by inpitlane

The mainstream media has spent all weekend looking for "the smoking gun" in Brocky's crash. Channel Nine in particular were most keen. I spent a good part of the weekend answering stupid questions from journalists who appeared to have done their "motorsport" research for the story by watching "Days of Thunder"
All they wanted was to try and find something, anything that Brock might have said in his interview with me that they could take out of context and beat up into a scandal.
When I told one producer at Nine that Brocky's car had some of Australia's best race engineering behind it such as Mike Borland who produces the Spectrum Formula Ford his question was "Has anybody recently been killed in a Spectrum?
They've tried the car, the road, the event, fatigue. Possibly the only area that has not been looked at yet, but I expect will come up in any inquest will be was he wearing a HANS device and if not why not. As to what Brock thought of both the event and the car, if they watch the show tomorrow night they'll be in no doubt at all.

On the media and the 'beefing up of stories' (and the usual rubbish you hear when tragedies such as this happen), it was intriguing the story of the local resident who has been complaining about the road, after the accident.

First reports of this came through on Sky News on Friday afternoon, the first report saying that the local resident had been campaigning for changes to the road for years, as over time the road had claimed 8 motorcyclists.

Later that night on one of the FTA channels (i'll admit i can't remember which one) it was mentioned that the resident had been campaigning as 8 motorcyclists had been killed on that corner

And then Saturday, this resident is mentioned again, only this time the story went 8 motorcyclists had been killed at the very same tree that Peter Brock hit.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

Lex Davison, racing driver, businessman, husband, father and raconteur, was a larger than life character, who had taken on 'legendary' status prior to his tragic death at the wheel of his Brabham racing car at Sandown Park in February 1965, whilst contesting the international Tasman series.

Uncle sometimes I wonder about you.

Lex Davison was killed in 1965 at a track built to 1960's safety standards where the only thing separating the race cars from the wooden posts of the horse track perimeter fence was a bit of grass and dirt, of course Sandown was upgraded in 1984 to full FIA spec for the World Prototype race and is continually checked by CAMS to ensure it complies with various CAMS & FIA safety requirements. Vehicle safety standards have also improved in the 41 years since that accident.

Now look at Rallying in general, these are held on closed public roads and I have to say I don't have a major problem with gravel rallying as they are slower on average but there is always the temptation to drive a tarmac event as if it's a circuit race even though the level of safety is different.

Public roads are built to suit normal traffic use and the corner in question is one of those that tend to catch people out in normal use.


The "Tarmac Rally" style of racing needs to be reviewed just like all other forms of racing is reviewed to ensure all is done so that the racing is held safely. Just because the competitors know it a dangerous sport doesn't mean organisers can ignore safety issues BUT knee jerk reactions need to be replaced by carefully considered submissions and implimentation.

[Langers]

It has to be asked though: if Brock was so safety conscious, why would you enter such a car into Targa events without side impact protection? That decision truly baffles me.

[inpitlane]

Originally Posted by Langers

It has to be asked though: if Brock was so safety conscious, why would you enter such a car into Targa events without side impact protection? That decision truly baffles me.

The car had side impact protection. Sidebars are built into the tub which is pretty wide, I had a close look at the car at Sandown and that was the first thing I asked. The car Trevor Hendy drove was identical to Brockys and anybody who calls the car a "kit car" clearly knows nothing about it.
Once again if there were any problems with the car safety wise not only would Brock not have driven it, it wouldn't get thorough scruitineering either at Targa, Buller, Lake Mountain or in the Victorian State Series.

[Langers]

That's certainly all true, but does the floor-level impact protection offer the same strength as traditional X frame bars across torso height? I wouldn't think so.

[pete55]

Originally Posted by inpitlane

The car had side impact protection. Sidebars are built into the tub which is pretty wide, I had a close look at the car at Sandown and that was the first thing I asked. The car Trevor Hendy drove was identical to Brockys and anybody who calls the car a "kit car" clearly knows nothing about it.
Once again if there were any problems with the car safety wise not only would Brock not have driven it, it wouldn't get thorough scruitineering either at Targa, Buller, Lake Mountain or in the Victorian State Series.

Apparently it has been spoken about in the motorsport fraternity and some feel that the car Brockie drove did not have the same strength as say a Porsche or Ferrari etc. I guess an investigation into this will prove it one way or the other.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by pete55

I was talking to John Teulan this afternoon and he said the area that will be looked at is the 'kit car' type cars such as the one Brockie was driving. He said he has seen pictures of the car and that a normal car would have stood up a lot better than that. He said that maybe the roll cage was not strong enough also.

This is typical nonsense offered up to support ill pre-conceived prejudice out of total ignorance. Teulan thinks "Italian " kit cars are fine but not those built anywhere else . What a genius "engineer " Teulan must be-- from pictures( what on the news?) he has managed to deduce that it is not a "normal" car and therefore resulted in this tradegy. Pete 55 - you may well have more brains than to accept that rubbish- I doubt that Teulan has by his ignorant comments you reported and on previous occassions.
Has he ever seen one of these cars? Almost certainly no. Yet his engineering skills allow him to make derogatory "kit" cars comment .As pointed out the Daytona has been engineered by competent recognised people with no expense spared in design.It is a fully factory built car.
To emphasize the point that the tree(s) is the problem - less than a month ago 2 people were killed in a Ferrari 360 after coming into heavy contact with a tree-- and that car exploded into pieces. Did I read Tuelans enlightened engineering views then?

[johnny yuma]

Side impact bars may protect you if another vehicle gives you a glancing blow, but if your vehicle comes to a very sudden deceleration or stop from
high speed,your body will be "flung" [in fact will follow Newtons laws and try to keep going] against the door or side impact bar or tree or whatever.A CENTRE HIT like the Daytona took would be any drivers nightmare.There is zero crumple,and as they always say its not speed that kills its the sudden stop.Internal organs rupture against your own ribcage,your brain belts around inside your own head.

[pete55]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

This is typical nonsense offered up to support ill pre-conceived prejudice out of total ignorance. Teulan thinks "Italian " kit cars are fine but not those built anywhere else . What a genius "engineer " Teulan must be-- from pictures( what on the news?) he has managed to deduce that it is not a "normal" car and therefore resulted in this tradegy. Pete 55 - you may well have more brains than to accept that rubbish- I doubt that Teulan has by his ignorant comments you reported and on previous occassions.
Has he ever seen one of these cars? Almost certainly no. Yet his engineering skills allow him to make derogatory "kit" cars comment .As pointed out the Daytona has been engineered by competent recognised people with no expense spared in design.It is a fully factory built car.
To emphasize the point that the tree(s) is the problem - less than a month ago 2 people were killed in a Ferrari 360 after coming into heavy contact with a tree-- and that car exploded into pieces. Did I read Tuelans enlightened engineering views then?

Firstly i think you know that a Ferrari is not a kit car. Secondly he is a race driver and was only offering his opinion and those of others he has spoken too. Thirdly i don't know what derogatory comment he made about kit cars, all that was said was that they are not as strong. I certainly don't have a problem with kit cars but i would concede that many of them are not that strong as compared to other cars of that type. I was looking at buying a Bolwell that i saw for sale at one stage but i would not like to have an accident in it. Finally just where to you get your expertise to make a judgement on John Teulan, myself or even the relative strenghts of cars or supposedly my ignorant comments previously.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by pete55

Firstly i think you know that a Ferrari is not a kit car. Secondly he is a race driver and was only offering his opinion and those of others he has spoken too. Thirdly i don't know what derogatory comment he made about kit cars, all that was said was that they are not as strong. I certainly don't have a problem with kit cars but i would concede that many of them are not that strong as compared to other cars of that type. I was looking at buying a Bolwell that i saw for sale at one stage but i would not like to have an accident in it. Finally just where to you get your expertise to make a judgement on John Teulan, myself or even the relative strenghts of cars or supposedly my ignorant comments previously.

Which bit do you not get-- a definition of a kit car or that Teulan is unqualified to comment on such serious issues.I now wonder about you-- a Bolwell was built and designed well nigh 40 years ago!By inference you are making a comparson that is flawed on too many counts to bother pointing out to you.By inferring that Daytona was a "kit" car - which by definition it is not- and persisting with it you add nothing but an inference that the"car" was to blame.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by johnny yuma

Side impact bars may protect you if another vehicle gives you a glancing blow, but if your vehicle comes to a very sudden deceleration or stop from
high speed,your body will be "flung" [in fact will follow Newtons laws and try to keep going] against the door or side impact bar or tree or whatever.A CENTRE HIT like the Daytona took would be any drivers nightmare.There is zero crumple,and as they always say its not speed that kills its the sudden stop.Internal organs rupture against your own ribcage,your brain belts around inside your own head.

A good example was in car video from calder park in 1996? when brockie went off the track in what looked like a minor off. His commodore hit the wall sideways and despite being in a racing seat, 5 point harness and all that he flew nearly sideways out of the seat and his head and neck snapped like a rag doll. He was lucky to walk away.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

A good example was in car video from calder park in 1996?

Eastern Creek, 1996, in an opening lap tangle in race 2 with Mark Skaife.

[pete55]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Which bit do you not get-- a definition of a kit car or that Teulan is unqualified to comment on such serious issues.I now wonder about you

I was more concerned that you may not be qualified yourself.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by pete55

I was more concerned that you may not be qualified yourself.

I was not the one sprouting expertise on engineering of cars that I had never seen. ( I have seen and looked at it very closely FYI) .Quoting Teulan as an expert is comic. So instead of trying to take cheap shots go back and have a look at the stupidity you espoused in your post.
For the record- Teulan previous public comments about so called "kit" cars are a matter of record- so for him to take this opportunity to bag them is hardly surprising.He believes if it did not cost some distorted amount then it is not a proper car.How he thinks Ferrari's are built escapes me.Hand built assembled etc - how is that so different.
Along with all the other do-gooders with a barrow to push Teulan has a stab at a low production number based car as beind responsible be inference.The comment is both misleading ,irresponsible and flawed.

[DAVID PATERSON]

There can be no denying that Targa roads are inherently more dangerous than racing circuits and Targa cars are held to a lower safety standard than circuit race cars, but this is because circuit racing cars are generally driven far closer to the limit than Targa cars.

Like many above, I believe this is not the time for knee jerk reactions, nor is it the time to sit on our hands and blindly accept the Status Quo. The appropriate people need to investigate the incident thoroughly, consider all the factors and then decide what actions ned to be taken, if any.