[Team] Williams Expects Better...Will they ever do better?

[wnut]

There seems to be a major problem with their aero parts translating from the wind tunnel to the track as well. They binned all the upgrades they took to Monaco and I see they have now gone back to a previous configuration so that would put them about three updates down on their own technical progress for Turkey.

Who is the chief aerodynamicist and who was his predecessor and when did they swop?

I appreciate the thinking behind your post about budget herowassenna, but if you just don't have enough to go around you are left having to run compromises all over the place. Waste is another issue entirely.

[herowassenna]

Isn't it funny how Sam Michael has come from Jordan and assumed a tech directors post at Williams and instead of moving forwards has actually brought Williams down to Jordan's level.
It does sadden me how Williams have become, I always had the utmost respect for FW, reminded me so much of Enzo Ferrari, in his attitude towards drivers, ie any monkey can win in their cars. The money was spent on engineering not on retainers. Ron Dennis wants to believe he's the modern day incarnation of Enzo, but to me it was always Frank.

I too have read about the Symonds connection Strider, but again can't place where I read it. I think that would be a great call. A man used to the position of TD and someone who knows how to work with a budget and resources.

[wnut]

Quote herowassenna :It does sadden me how Williams have become, I always had the utmost respect for FW, reminded me so much of Enzo Ferrari, in his attitude towards drivers, ie any monkey can win in their cars. The money was spent on engineering not on retainers. Ron Dennis wants to believe he's the modern day incarnation of Enzo, but to me it was always Frank.

Yup pay peanuts get monkeys. The driver is tremendously important in building winning performance. Ferrari seems to have changed its approach and has never won a championship without a top line driver!

Clearly Adrian Newey recognised the flaw in this approach and left.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by wnut

Yup pay peanuts get monkeys. The driver is tremendously important in building winning performance. Ferrari seems to have changed its approach and has never won a championship without a top line driver!

Clearly Adrian Newey recognised the flaw in this approach and left.

I have no idea your age wnut, but I have been following F1 since the late 70's.
Williams have always been an engineering team first and foremost.
In 1991, Newey was starting to run their design dept, and Head was tech director. Great partnership. They won the WDC in 1992,93,96,97 with Mansell, Prost, Hill and Villeneuve. But alot of their approach was to design a car that anyone could win in. They got rid of Mansell, Prost and Hill following their wins. Hill being sacked was the reason why Newey left Williams.

The closest to that theory now is Red Bull, because any driver would be dominant in one of their cars.
Ferrari throughout the Schumi years always worked around the top guy to the detriment of the team-mate.

[wnut]

My real point is that it is a flawed philosophy that an engineering department can produce a car that anyone can win in.
The drivers input and ability is vital to winning a world championship.

You may have an aberration from time to time but I believe that the rule holds.

Ferrari is a case in point, if you took Schumacher out of the equation how often would Barrichello have been a world champion if he was the team leader?

Williams have chosen to ignore their driver input and it has decimated their effort. It is all very well to have pretty set of numbers and very different to have a good racing car.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by strider

To be totally fair, Barrichello's accident is said to have been due to a loose manhole cover, but I agree with your overall analysis.

Interestingly, there's talk of the semi-infamous Pat Symonds getting involved as a consultant, which he is now allowed to do, but I can't remember where I read that. He'd be a man to galvanise the team. Before Crashgate I always rated him very highly and I have never seen him as one of the principal culprits in that, although he willingly took part.

What a game of roulette F1 is...I love to see people trying so hard, making hit records is very hard also...

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

What a game of roulette F1 is...I love to see people trying so hard, making hit records is very hard also...

Wish someone would tell Simon Cowell that, his crap infiltrates everywhere...

[Super Hans]

Making hit records is hard but much easier if you can sell them off the back of a massively popular TV show which effectively acts as advertising and ensures that the artist is famous before the CD even hits the shops.

[Sodemo]

I think a new engine deal would help. Would be kinda nice to see Williams - Renault back on the timesheets?

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

they will never become a "B" team or a proponent of a spec series. F.I. on the other hand have bought themselves a partner with Mclaren and Mercedes and it has proven fruitful. right or wrong, Williams will not go down that road.

Williams are stubborn in that respect, and it's a reason I like them.

[Crispy12]

There's an article in F1 Racing Magazine about the possibility of Porsche getting behind Williams. I know Porsche entering F1 is a rumour that's being going around for years but I think a major manufacturer getting behind Williams again such as in the way BMW did is probably the only chance they have of making major strides back towards the front of the grid.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Crispy12

There's an article in F1 Racing Magazine about the possibility of Porsche getting behind Williams. I know Porsche entering F1 is a rumour that's being going around for years but I think a major manufacturer getting behind Williams again such as in the way BMW did is probably the only chance they have of making major strides back towards the front of the grid.

Would it be Porsche or "VW"?

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Would it be Porsche or "VW"?

or Audi?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Crispy12

There's an article in F1 Racing Magazine about the possibility of Porsche getting behind Williams. I know Porsche entering F1 is a rumour that's being going around for years but I think a major manufacturer getting behind Williams again such as in the way BMW did is probably the only chance they have of making major strides back towards the front of the grid.

I would tend to agree but from a financial point of view rather than an engineering one.
At the moment engines are fairly well restricted so there will never be a huge 'technical advantage' gained there. Chassis design is different and Mr Newey has been the guru for the last twenty or more years in that department with the only real challenge coming from the Brawn-Byrne syndicate.

Adrian Newey will not be around forever and I am not suggesting that there are not others as talented who could challenge him but that Newey has managed to establish and lead effective design teams at three different teams, leading each one of them to the forefront of Grand Prix engineering. Only Ross Brawn has demonstrated as much engineering leadership out of the current crop and that is effectively what Williams needs.

Money does count of course , but money alone will not suffice and I am not suggesting Sam Michael is the bad apple, simply that Williams doesn't have a Newey or a Brawn leading the technical team, and the teams that do have the best people currently available for the job.

Thats why they are dominant. If someone else emerges as a fantastic design talent and engineering leader he should be snapped up because under the current design rules thats essential if you want to get to the front.

[Crispy12]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Would it be Porsche or "VW"?

Originally Posted by herowassenna

or Audi?

It said Porsche in the article. I think based on their relationship with the flywheel kers on the 911 in the Nurburgring 24hr.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I would tend to agree but from a financial point of view rather than an engineering one.
At the moment engines are fairly well restricted so there will never be a huge 'technical advantage' gained there. Chassis design is different and Mr Newey has been the guru for the last twenty or more years in that department with the only real challenge coming from the Brawn-Byrne syndicate.

Adrian Newey will not be around forever and I am not suggesting that there are not others as talented who could challenge him but that Newey has managed to establish and lead effective design teams at three different teams, leading each one of them to the forefront of Grand Prix engineering. Only Ross Brawn has demonstrated as much engineering leadership out of the current crop and that is effectively what Williams needs.

Money does count of course , but money alone will not suffice and I am not suggesting Sam Michael is the bad apple, simply that Williams doesn't have a Newey or a Brawn leading the technical team, and the teams that do have the best people currently available for the job.

Thats why they are dominant. If someone else emerges as a fantastic design talent and engineering leader he should be snapped up because under the current design rules thats essential if you want to get to the front.

I would agree with that. I think what a tie up with a large manufacturer would bring is perhaps extra engineering knowledge but also it might provide an incentive to encourage top engineers already in Formula 1 to move back towards Williams.

Don't forget also that it would free up some funds if they we're supplied engines in a works engine deal to pursue other areas that they maybe can't afford currently.

I don't think I could justify the view that Sam Michaels is to blame for the plight at Williams, it's a team after all and although the buck does stop with the technical director the whole blame isn't on his shoulders.

[GTRMagic]

Team Williams have over 500 people in their team (according to their website)

They cant all be dunces surely? If you look at it in percentages, the Williams in recent years has been a 98% car, with that magic 2% the difference between a Williams and a Red Bull.

The question for me is whether it makes sense to become a company of 400 people, and one ultra mega star technical director... 100 people @ E25k each is E2.5m for the lucky individual...

Surely Team Williams cant keep going as it is... I suspect that Mr Michael might be invited to seek other opportunities, after all the buck does stop with him.

[nobster]

The last time Porsche was in F1 it was not very succesful at all ( Footwork-Porsche was a major dissapointment )!

[Mr V]

We're as they were successfull between 1984-87.

I'm sure if they came back into F1 they wouldn't bolt 2 engines together again, which, iirc, is what they did back in 1991.

[stripedcat]

Williams need to get back into a winning mentality. They need a decent engine supplier for a start. I think at the moment it is their longest ever stretch of a losing streak.

They have two pretty decent drivers. Sam Michaels is a good engineer, but maybe the have to look at the team around him.