Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12 May 2013, 17:06 (Ref:3246294)   #301
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
I agree. Pirelli should only use the hard tyre from now on.

You'll notice that the majority of the teams, if not all of them, are not commenting about the way the tyres work.

Perhaps they all realise that, whilst more durable tyres will not require changing quite so often, it would not be in their best interests with regard to having any hope of winning any championship for the tyres to be made more durable?

More durable tyres would not only show bigger discrepancies between the cars, but would also make the closing of any gaps in performance that much more difficult.

I also agree that Pirelli need to use better glue.
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 17:12 (Ref:3246298)   #302
JeremySmith
Veteran
 
JeremySmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
United Kingdom
Austin Texas
Posts: 11,402
JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!
No I did not mean that, produce a range of compounds that don't fall apart, we now have tyres that are de-laminating, I wonder how it feels to be hit in the face at 190MPH by half the bloody tyre..

It is not a tyre championship..
JeremySmith is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 17:19 (Ref:3246301)   #303
chernaudi
Veteran
 
chernaudi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
United States
Mansfield, Ohio
Posts: 8,827
chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!chernaudi has a real shot at the championship!
I do agree that the tire failures that Pirelli has had this year are getting beyond ridiculous, but the FIA and FOM have to be held culpable, too, as Pirelli is only making the tires that the FIA and FOM are requesting them to make. It's still on Pirelli's shoulders to make a tire that's at least reasonably durable, but a lot also should rest on the FIA's and FOM's shoulders, too.

It's just like a bunch of the issues that Goodyear has had in NASCAR over the past decade. Goodyear was culpable for sure, as they should've been able to make tires that, again, were reasonably durable, but they too were making the tires that NASCAR and the teams asked them to make. Everyone I mentioned has a hand in this mess.

All the more ridiculous is that at the Silverstone WEC round, Audi even though of triple stinting their Michelin tires during the race and they double stinted with remarkable ease. Even the current Goodyear tires in some situations that NASCAR have can be run competitively when old.

If F1 wants strategy, re-introduce refueling. I also believe that the cars, carrying more than 300lbs worth or fuel onboard when brimmed, is also causing the tire issues to a degree, too.

Pirelli is dropping the ball, that's beyond question, but the FIA and FOM have sort of put them in this position. But still, Bridgestone never had these types of issues in the '09-10 period, and Michelin only had similar issues at Indy in '05 and Bridgestone had those issues early in '05, mostly with Ferrari.

Last edited by chernaudi; 12 May 2013 at 17:26.
chernaudi is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 17:33 (Ref:3246317)   #304
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremySmith View Post
No I did not mean that, produce a range of compounds that don't fall apart, we now have tyres that are de-laminating, I wonder how it feels to be hit in the face at 190MPH by half the bloody tyre..
It's probably no more fun than having any other part of an F1 car hitting you at that speed. Ask Massa about it, he knows.

And you agree that there is nothing wrong with 80 odd pit stops?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremySmith View Post
It is not a tyre championship..
It shouldn't be, but it quite so often is. You have also used Montezemolo's exact quote about the 2005 F1 championship.
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 17:34 (Ref:3246319)   #305
Scooter185
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 364
Scooter185 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ontop of making tires actually hold up, they should either bring all the compounds or let the teams each choose the two they want to use. That's when we will see some strategy.
Scooter185 is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 17:41 (Ref:3246322)   #306
JeremySmith
Veteran
 
JeremySmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
United Kingdom
Austin Texas
Posts: 11,402
JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbot View Post
It's probably no more fun than having any other part of an F1 car hitting you at that speed. Ask Massa about it, he knows.

And you agree that there is nothing wrong with 80 odd pit stops?



It shouldn't be, but it quite so often is. You have also used Montezemolo's exact quote about the 2005 F1 championship.

Yes but the Massa accident was a freak accident, not often do we see bits of suspension flying through the air at speed..

I am not sure I understand what you mean by the "80 pit stop" bit ?
JeremySmith is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 17:51 (Ref:3246338)   #307
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post

If F1 wants strategy, re-introduce refueling.
No! No! No! It's been demonstrated to be dangerous on more than one occasion and will only lead to races where we wait for one car to pit followed quickly by several more following suit in order to cover every other cars strategy. That is boring!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
But still, Bridgestone never had these types of issues in the '09-10 period, and Michelin only had similar issues at Indy in '05 and Bridgestone had those issues early in '05, mostly with Ferrari.
Bridgestone '09-10 produced very durable tyres. Ironically, Canada 2010 was where Bridgestone got it wrong, but where everyone else thought that they had got it spot on. Pirelli were asked to base their tyres on what happened in the 2010 Canadian GP, obviously because many thought that the racing had been as dull as ditch-water up until that point.

Michelin and Bridgestone both spent many, many, many millions of dollars and did many, many, many thousands of kilometres of tyre testing. This included pre-season testing and in-season testing, but still they managed to make tyres that failed?!
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 17:59 (Ref:3246342)   #308
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter185 View Post
Ontop of making tires actually hold up, they should either bring all the compounds or let the teams each choose the two they want to use. That's when we will see some strategy.
Today, the teams had no option but to use the hardest compounds that Pirelli have. Bringing all four would not have made any difference to tyre choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremySmith View Post
Yes but the Massa accident was a freak accident, not often do we see bits of suspension flying through the air at speed..
Carbon fibre can be just as dangerous as any metal component can be at high speed. What do you suggest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremySmith View Post
I am not sure I understand what you mean by the "80 pit stop" bit ?
I was under the impression that your only concern was with tyre debris? Which still isn't anywhere near as common place as having bits of car flying around. In fact, it is this 'debris' that causes most of the tyre problems.
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 18:42 (Ref:3246366)   #309
Scooter185
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 364
Scooter185 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Bringing all the compounds is reliant on making them all able to hold up much more than they currently do.
Scooter185 is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 20:00 (Ref:3246391)   #310
werner
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Netherlands
Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Posts: 1,706
werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Although I agree on the fact that pitstops after 7 laps, and drivers needing 4 pitstops per race is a bit over the top, I couldn't help notice that Raikonen was able today to finish on the podium today with 3 pitstops, more or less pushing all the way. That in itself is already pretty impressive, but he managed to do it on the softer tire in 3 of his 4 stints!
Ergo, instead of beating Pirelli, we could also point at most teams not being able to solve a problem, that Lotus apparantly have solved. Maybe they should relocate a few of their engineers from the windtunnel to the suspensiondepartment...
werner is offline  
Quote
Old 12 May 2013, 22:11 (Ref:3246443)   #311
Nicholosophy
Veteran
 
Nicholosophy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Australia
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,120
Nicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridNicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridNicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Pirelli can't win in this situation. If they had made tyres that lasted and cars were one or two stopping, people would be complaining about the lack of overtaking. Instead we are now complaining about the lack of tyre life.

What should happen is compounds should be set by October 31st the previous year, and teams allowed to test them after the final GP of the year. They can then build cars to get the best out of the tyres. Part of F1 should be the ability to make the tyres available work. They all have the same tyres and some teams are better than others at doing that.
Nicholosophy is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 00:57 (Ref:3246481)   #312
fomoco
Veteran
 
fomoco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Australia
Bris Vages southside
Posts: 2,193
fomoco should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridfomoco should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickoGP View Post
Pirelli can't win in this situation. If they had made tyres that lasted and cars were one or two stopping, people would be complaining about the lack of overtaking. Instead we are now complaining about the lack of tyre life.

What should happen is compounds should be set by October 31st the previous year, and teams allowed to test them after the final GP of the year. They can then build cars to get the best out of the tyres. Part of F1 should be the ability to make the tyres available work. They all have the same tyres and some teams are better than others at doing that.
I agree with Nicko, watch other cats, IRL, Nascar, V8's and the same thing, with tyres, no matter what compound, it will never suit all teams, from car set up to driving style. Some drivers are hard on tyres, some position the car to preserve and extend the life of tyres.

Still makes for interesting racing, go hard and get shuffled back, or run at 95 % then come home strong, its a gamble but , like the V8's different winners at each round makes for better racing for all .

Or we could go back to Boring F1, he who is on pole, leads all the way. And have one trophy, the Drivers champ.

If you want the team trophy , then include tyre stops, etc, and see what team can set a car up, can service a car and get both home to score points for the team.
fomoco is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 07:54 (Ref:3246587)   #313
jsTrecu
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 744
jsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Pirelli ponders revising Formula 1 tyres in time for British GP
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107400


If it's true that the current situation is good for the sport and it's true that everyone is happy except RBR, as some people claim (and Pirelli claim), then why would they consider a full tyre revamp in time for Silverstone ?
I don't buy this "We want to get back to our plan" (2 pit stops with current tyres) thing, that is not possible they already knew it before the start of the season. Even if it was true, then why did it take so long to consider getting back to their "plan" ? Who was preventing them from doing so ?

I also love, the way Pirelli always try to play the Superhero role telling how hard they fight to prevent RBR (the Villain) from taking control of the tyre situation
Come on, who do you think you are fooling with this Hollywood-like acting ? They don't have that power unless half the teams support them, and even so, it would be almost impossible if Ferrari is not one of the teams supporting the change.
jsTrecu is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 12:01 (Ref:3246690)   #314
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
Red Bull want more durable tyres.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107402

Lotus don't.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107403

Mercedes, meanwhile, are the new Toyota.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107404
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 12:09 (Ref:3246693)   #315
stripedcat
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,223
stripedcat should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridstripedcat should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbot View Post
No! No! No! It's been demonstrated to be dangerous on more than one occasion and will only lead to races where we wait for one car to pit followed quickly by several more following suit in order to cover every other cars strategy. That is boring!



Yep - with you all the way on that one. Apart from the safety aspect of re-fuelling - going back to it would introduce more boredom into F1 as the result of the sprint races.

Pirelli just seem to be bringing too soft compounds to each circuit. I can understand they might get it wrong for a new circuit, but now that they have the information this sort of thing shouldn't happen.
stripedcat is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 12:41 (Ref:3246714)   #316
formerf1champ
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Australia
Vettel's gearbox preparing bench
Posts: 1,030
formerf1champ should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by fomoco View Post
If you want the team trophy , then include tyre stops, etc, and see what team can set a car up, can service a car and get both home to score points for the team.
What team trophy? It is a Constructor's championship.
formerf1champ is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 14:04 (Ref:3246751)   #317
neiltb
Racer
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Scotland
toronto
Posts: 275
neiltb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Had a thought during the race yesterday, have the tyres that are being used punishing teams with too high downforce? (if so, good) Merc were in a different league in qualy where grip is of utmost importance but were telling LH to slow in the corners to not overuse the tyre. Ferrari were fast in a straight line, maybe they trimmed it a little.

As for delamination, I saw one car have an issue on 1 tyre. we probably had close to 100 sets of tyres used in the race, a failure rate of <0.5%. Bad set up could have caused it too, don't jump down pirellis throat too fast, they provide the tyres, the teams decide what to do with them.
neiltb is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 15:11 (Ref:3246770)   #318
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 9,716
chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbot View Post
Today, the teams had no option but to use the hardest compounds that Pirelli have. Bringing all four would not have made any difference to tyre choice.
an interesting suggestion. perhaps bringing all four tires would have resulted in teams using the same two compounds in the exact same combination as they did yesterday. thats a hard one to determine.

i wonder if they simply brought two different and more appropriate compounds would we still have seen the same thing though.

for me the question now has to be would i prefer to see a race where a car will complete the race with a slower over all time but having to pit less or a race where they travel the race distance in the fastest possible time but with 4 stops?

million dollar question i guess?
chillibowl is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 15:27 (Ref:3246778)   #319
jsTrecu
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 744
jsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by neiltb View Post
Had a thought during the race yesterday, have the tyres that are being used punishing teams with too high downforce? (if so, good) Merc were in a different league in qualy where grip is of utmost importance but were telling LH to slow in the corners to not overuse the tyre. Ferrari were fast in a straight line, maybe they trimmed it a little.

As for delamination, I saw one car have an issue on 1 tyre. we probably had close to 100 sets of tyres used in the race, a failure rate of <0.5%. Bad set up could have caused it too, don't jump down pirellis throat too fast, they provide the tyres, the teams decide what to do with them.
Perez doesn't agree with you : source
Quote:
Perez said: "It's a big concern for all of us. You see two or three cars every weekend having this problem. There can be a really serious accident."


Also "the teams decide what to do with them.", do you mean they are at fault for just wanting to go as fast as they can ? Isn't this racing ? Isn't this the pinnacle of motorsport ? How can it be ok for the best drivers in the world driving the fastest cars in the world to avoid competing and trying hard just to be able to finish without stopping 5 times for a tyre change ?
jsTrecu is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 17:03 (Ref:3246815)   #320
Flat12-Aircool
Veteran
 
Flat12-Aircool's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
United Kingdom
Stoke-on-Trent (The Potteries)
Posts: 813
Flat12-Aircool should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridFlat12-Aircool should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Paul Hembery is really starting to irritate me, with his ridiculous claims that Pirelli are the only thing stopping F1 returning to the bad old "procession" races of years ago.

I'm sorry but since those days we now have DRS and KERS to at least give some chance of overtaking and provide a little entertainment. All that Pirelli are doing is preventing the fastest Driver/Car combination on a given race weekend from winning.

If I want to watch endurance racing I tune into WEC Le Mans...
Flat12-Aircool is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 17:38 (Ref:3246823)   #321
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
I still dont understand the basis of a car having too much downforce killing the tyre. In years gone by it was the car which had the most downforce which kept the tyres in good condition. So what's changed?
Sodemo is online now  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 17:40 (Ref:3246824)   #322
Greem
Veteran
 
Greem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
United Kingdom
Posts: 5,067
Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!
The reality of the whole situation is that everyone inside the F1 circus is looking after number 1. It will take someone very strong - or a group - to break out and say "you know what, we're *all* doing it wrong".

Tyres, DRS, testing limitations, caps on wind tunnel running, the team curfew, over-tight specifications, fiddling with engine regulations - they've all come from absorbed self-interest. The show *must* go on, and hang the (largely unintended) consequences.

Until somebody finds themselves able to remove their head from the collective hiding place that they've all stowed them, nothing will improve. It will change, but it won't necessarily improve (as we've seen)...
Greem is online now  
__________________
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.
When they realise you have, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes.
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 17:47 (Ref:3246833)   #323
bjohnsonsmith
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
bjohnsonsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United States
London, England
Posts: 23,143
bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Pirelli can bring back boring processional racing, if that's what fans and teams want. Sounds like Pirelli have completely misunderstood the situation.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107415
bjohnsonsmith is offline  
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying."
Colin Chapman.
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 17:50 (Ref:3246836)   #324
neiltb
Racer
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Scotland
toronto
Posts: 275
neiltb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsTrecu View Post
Also "the teams decide what to do with them.", do you mean they are at fault for just wanting to go as fast as they can ? Isn't this racing ? Isn't this the pinnacle of motorsport ? How can it be ok for the best drivers in the world driving the fastest cars in the world to avoid competing and trying hard just to be able to finish without stopping 5 times for a tyre change ?
to the first, yes. If I set up my car to have high loading on the tyres and one fails it can be my fault and not the fault of the supplier.

it is racing, first person to cover prescribed distance wins = race in my book

pinnacle of motorsport? well they spend the most money if that means anything

Kimi tried pretty hard and only stopped 3 times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22403794

read the last 6 or seven paragraphs of the above, does it sound familiar?
neiltb is offline  
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 18:25 (Ref:3246861)   #325
TheMightyM
Veteran
 
TheMightyM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location:
Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,490
TheMightyM has a real shot at the podium!TheMightyM has a real shot at the podium!TheMightyM has a real shot at the podium!TheMightyM has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
Pirelli can bring back boring processional racing, if that's what fans and teams want. Sounds like Pirelli have completely misunderstood the situation.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107415
Pirelli has already brought back boring processional racing, it’s just that their take involves a procession to the pits to constantly change tires.
TheMightyM is offline  
__________________
“Sometimes there’s no poison like a dream.” — Tanya Donelly
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Tech Issue] New tyre markings and softer compounds for Pirelli tyres Marbot Formula One 7 26 Jan 2012 14:44
[Rules] Pirelli (ITA) : ban tyre changes under red flag. duke_toaster Formula One 11 31 May 2011 03:15
The Pirelli Story Dutton Motorsport History 1 13 Aug 2009 16:06
Pirelli win WRC tyre contract. BertMk2 Rallying & Rallycross 14 5 Apr 2007 09:48
Pirelli tyre problems? Asa Sportscar & GT Racing 3 18 Jul 2005 12:35


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.