[Multi 21] F1 becoming a joke

[Peralta]

With team orders mid way through a race, saving fuel and inferior tires not to mention DSR and KERS, Formula One is becoming increasingly nothing to do about who is the fastest driver out on the track winning the race. Drivers have aids now with KERS and DRS to make passing easier for them. No real skill from the driver. Drivers slowing down to preserve fuel and tires so not really racing is it? Team orders meaning hold station so no racing! F1 is quickly becoming entertainment instead of a race. How will this period be viewed twenty years from now. We have the best driver talent on the greed than any time in the history of F1, yet they are not allowed to race and show who really was the best out there that given day. What a joke, says Villenueve, indeed what a joke.

[Nicholosophy]

I dont' get all this talk about tyres.

Part of any racing series is to control the consumables you have at your disposal. Fuel is one, tyres are another.

Drivers can take a punt, use up all the grip early and then struggle to the pitstop. Or they can take it a bit easier and keep the tyres in the zone. It's up to them.

To me that makes things interesting. It's also dependent on driver skill and car setup.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Peralta

No real skill from the driver.

It takes a very good driver to driver a race car fast, it takes a very very very very good driver to driver an F1 car fast. You do these drivers a disservice.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Peralta

With team orders mid way through a race, saving fuel and inferior tires not to mention DSR and KERS, Formula One is becoming increasingly nothing to do about who is the fastest driver out on the track winning the race. Drivers have aids now with KERS and DRS to make passing easier for them. No real skill from the driver. Drivers slowing down to preserve fuel and tires so not really racing is it? Team orders meaning hold station so no racing! F1 is quickly becoming entertainment instead of a race. How will this period be viewed twenty years from now. We have the best driver talent on the greed than any time in the history of F1, yet they are not allowed to race and show who really was the best out there that given day. What a joke, says Villenueve, indeed what a joke.

Second race of the season, on new design tyres. It's going to take a few races to get the hang of the wear rates, and how that affects fuel consumption. This race is an anomaly. The teams don't want to have to save fuel, they want to win, but in this case their calculations were wrong and they were unable to do that.

And F1 has been entertainment for years. If you want to watch pure racing, then F1 is not the right place to be.

[BertMk2]

Mercedes were only saving fuel because they'd cocked up how much they put in - they gambled on it being wetter for longer so they fuelled the cars short of what they'd need for a dry race to save a bit of weight. It just dried up far earlier than they were expecting so they had to start saving fuel very early on in the race. So that's nothing to do with F1 'becoming a joke' that's just one team taking a gamble and it not quite coming off.

[FAS33]

Nico had enough fuel. Brawn said ''you can't overtake my number 1 driver''. Nico consented and now Mercedes or maybe just their director is a joke.

[steve_r]

F1 wasn't like this back in its heyday of the 90's, when Prost, Senna, Mansell and Patrese went wheel-to-wheel flat out for the whole race.

Except that is not true. It was exactly like today, when plenty of races were partly about who could use their fuel most efficiently. Its not a new thing at all.

[Sodemo]

I think DRS needs to be scrapped, or have a re-think. Its become an "automatic pass", which is boring, and its no challenge whatsoever.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think DRS needs to be scrapped, or have a re-think. Its become an "automatic pass", which is boring, and its no challenge whatsoever.

Seeing the two Mercedes cars towing each other along though reminded me of a thought when DRS was first suggested. By virtue of using DRS on alternate cars on alternate laps, did the team gain an advantage? What I mean is, did thet enable both Mercedes cars to go faster over those laps than they would have done without DRS, or was there something else that cancelled out the advantage?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Seeing the two Mercedes cars towing each other along though reminded me of a thought when DRS was first suggested. By virtue of using DRS on alternate cars on alternate laps, did the team gain an advantage? What I mean is, did thet enable both Mercedes cars to go faster over those laps than they would have done without DRS, or was there something else that cancelled out the advantage?

I would have thought the main advantage was in fuel preservation, with Nico using a lot less fuel with DRS open.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think DRS needs to be scrapped, or have a re-think. Its become an "automatic pass", which is boring, and its no challenge whatsoever.

Become? It always was. If anything it has improved. It is, though, still dreadful. Especially if we are persisting with these grim tyres.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Ok, here's my views:

Tyres. Much, much better than fuel racing. I don't want to see overtakes in the pitlane. Tyres prevent that from happening. Yes, we have more stops, but we don't see so much strategy surrounding those stops ie. "we'll get him when he pits".

At least tyres are something the drivers can actively have an input on. Fuel, not so much. It's just a dial they turn up and down. That was seriously boring.

DRS, I agree. I think it needs to be seriously looked at. I think it worked ok in Malaysia, though. At least it gave the guy behind a chance to re-overtake. But still, I think it just needs to be knocked on the head for good. The tyres have re-enabled overtaking.

And back to the tyres, look at last year and the year before. Everyone was up in arms because they were 'too unpredictable', then by the end of the season, up in arms again because it was 'too predictable'! Come on, people.

Are you not happy that we're seeing teams STRUGGLING to work something out in this day and age? You can't rewind. You can't stick a technology in that's barely been invented and expect teams to take years and years to get up to scratch like aero or engines like back in yesteryear. Technology and research has totally changed. These tyres have thrown a total spanner in the works. I don't care if that was done deliberately or not, that's what's happened and I think it's fantastic. The teams are there to get their heads round something, not just the status quo.

/rant over

In conclusion, DRS needs to go, because of the tyres.

Sorry, one extra thing - Didn't people always want increased braking distances and increased reliance on mechanical grip...? Isn't that essentially what we have now depending on the state of your tyre?!?

Selby

[Bononi]

Let's blow it to the ground and build a new one from scratch !!!!!


Anyone ? We need volunteers !

[steve nielsen]

OK, so it was time for Vettel and Webber to take their vitamines??

[Marbot]

Tyres: Some teams are complaining about the tyres because they feel that they are being punished for creating too much downforce, which is wearing out their tyres too prematurely.

For years the FIA, and the teams, have been looking for ways in which to limit downforce.

Perhaps they have now found one?

DRS: Perhaps it would be better to restrict it to a time limit throughout qualifying and the race? Say, 5 to 10 minutes in total, or whatever. That might give you some very fast qualifying laps, or a better chance to overtake during the race.

[Sodemo]

Couldn't Pirelli be tasked with producing a tyre (specifically rear tyre) with a wider slip angle? That's what I would like to see.

[b1ackcr0w]

Originally Posted by Peralta

With team orders mid way through a race, saving fuel and inferior tires not to mention DSR and KERS, Formula One is becoming increasingly nothing to do about who is the fastest driver out on the track winning the race. Drivers have aids now with KERS and DRS to make passing easier for them. No real skill from the driver. Drivers slowing down to preserve fuel and tires so not really racing is it? Team orders meaning hold station so no racing! F1 is quickly becoming entertainment instead of a race. How will this period be viewed twenty years from now. We have the best driver talent on the greed than any time in the history of F1, yet they are not allowed to race and show who really was the best out there that given day. What a joke, says Villenueve, indeed what a joke.

No real skill from the driver? Are you sure you weren't expecting Unicorn racing?

Even with KERS & DRS, you've got to time the deployment to perfection. You've got to hit the right button with Nomex gloves on while doing way upward of 100mph in an open car. You can't see most of the really important parts of your bodywork which will shatter on the merest contact and probably wreck the race. All that and 4.5 lateral G of braking force alone.

There's a reason I'm a struggling fat computer geek and they're multi-millionaire superstars. And the reason is that I can only dream of having the skill and bravery they have in abundance.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w

There's a reason I'm a struggling fat computer geek and they're multi-millionaire superstars. And the reason is that I can only dream of having the skill and bravery they have in abundance.

Oh yes, couldn't say it better !

[garcon]

Mind you, who wouldn't watch unicorn racing?

[steve_r]

DRS works on some tracks better than others. It seems to be totally unnecessary on tracks like Malaysia which has those two huge straights. On some other tracks the race would be much worse off without it IMO.

[Paradise City]

I hate DRS. When the broadcast mentions remote control DRS activation zones, it just make me cringe. It's just penelope pitstop magic carpet racing. I don't like that, no. I'm less fussed about the tyres and KERS.

I said it in the other thread, I think they should ban driver-team radio communications. I think that would make strategy calls as the race unfolds very dodgy and lots of fun for us.

[stripedcat]

The tyres are okay. It is much better having them than going back to the days of the sprint racing and fuel pitstops! "We can't overtake. Don't worry stay close to them and we'll get them in the next pitstop." - Boring!.

As for DRS - well, yes it doesn't sit comfortably with me now. Part of me thinks that just having the tyres would be enough -but however, we are back to the age old problem of "dirty air". On some tracks it sort of makes DRS a necessity. Until the designers can come up with a way of the cars not giving off some much turbulence and being easier to follow then we are stuck with this problem. DRS seems like a sticking plaster for this particular ill, though.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by stripedcat

The tyres are okay. It is much better having them than going back to the days of the sprint racing and fuel pitstops! "We can't overtake. Don't worry stay close to them and we'll get them in the next pitstop." - Boring!.

As for DRS - well, yes it doesn't sit comfortably with me now. Part of me thinks that just having the tyres would be enough -but however, we are back to the age old problem of "dirty air". On some tracks it sort of makes DRS a necessity. Until the designers can come up with a way of the cars not giving off some much turbulence and being easier to follow then we are stuck with this problem. DRS seems like a sticking plaster for this particular ill, though.

DRS is a disaster. However, these designers don't have to look too far for inspiration. Formula Ford cars of old can follow easy in packs, they don't have much turbulence to deal with. Wider cars, wider tyres, slash the amount of front wing elements, and we are on the way there.

[kartincolin]

In regards to the tyres, I think that tyre preservation is a skill that should be necessary in Formula 1. It is a highly underrated skill, and a hugely important asset for any driver. I don`t think we will see fuel saving on the same scale as Malaysia again for a while. After all, the reason that Lewis had to save fuel was a calculation blunder by the team.

When DRS was conceived, it wasn`t for fans like us who want to see racing at its purest. It was conceived for the casual viewer who might be more likely to watch a Grand Prix if there`s a constant stream of overtaking. On the other hand, I quite like KERS as it can be deployed strategically when needed, such as when defending a position.

[Purist]

I don't care for DRS, plain and simple.

The tires don't need to be so finicky though either, since there is no in-race refueling. There is strategy now; it's just changed from trying to pit later to having to pit earlier, to jump the guys ahead by using your fresher/quicker tires, just like what happened yesterday in the NASCAR race at Fontana.

There's a difference between drivers being able to "abuse" their tires and get away with it, and having things so pocked-up that you have each team running in its own little bubble, and not being able to actually race. The smart way to go is to give a somewhat lower optimum grip with decent durability, than insane short-run grip, but with very little durability. Playing games, and creating a serious potential for blow-outs, is a dangerous strategy.

Long Beach 1999 was a good race, with a mix of pushing and holding back, none of the ultra blatant driver aids, and a good number of battles and overtaking maneuvers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9bQDgib1ZA

IMSA at Road Atlanta in 1992 demonstrates why you do NOT play too fast and loose with the tire parameters (not to mention, making sure you give your tire supplier accurate downforce figures). You don't want something like what happened to Nissan to happen at the wrong place around Spa, Suzuka, or Interlagos, to name a few.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5laDwEVd92s

The engine and gearbox thing should also be looked at. If the engines and transmissions have already been built, it's NOT much of a cost-saving measure to limit their usage before levying penalties. I might mention that, if enough teams chose to take those penalties on a given weekend, it would make an utter mockery of qualifying, and if everyone did it, the penalties would simply be nullified.

Going back to aero for a bit, undertray tunnels, coupled with a narrower front wing and simplified wings front and rear, would help quite a lot with wake turbulence. Just make sure the cars run sensible ground clearance (though most of the tracks are pretty darn smooth anymore), and don't allow side skirts. You have to face the fact though that power and mechanical grip come up against the law of diminishing returns when it comes to gaining time/speed, whereas aero works the opposite way; the faster you go, the more downforce you get, and that increase is not merely linear, but exponential. Therefore, the laws of physics dictate that that is where the most time will be gained, and no set of rules, or funky set of tires, can get you, or the teams, around that fact.