British GP to be held at Donington

[henk4]

Not being from the UK, but having been to Silverstone several times as well as to Donington once (2006 LMS) I must say that facility wise Silverstone wins by a mile (and in absolute terms, SStone is not very good), and road access is far better.
To me it has always been unclear what is driving Bernie, and why all tracks need to have such upmarket and very costly facilities, for one event per year...

And btw if Bernie wants a televised F1 with no public access he could use his own track, the one with the nice blue and red lines....

Finally, it will be interesting to watch whether Bernie is getting delivery soon of a new jet, so big that it cannot land at SStone, but needs the East Midlands runway..

[Marbot]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Bernie is "a private investor who is also a large shareholder".

[Matski]

These are only my two cent's...

I go to Silverstone a few times a year, so I'm relatively familiar with the place. The GP is my LEAST favourite event.

The Silverstone slogan for the past few years has been "BECAUSE ITS SILVERSTONE"... How infuriating is that?! Like they EXPECT to be on the calender JUST B E C A U S E I T S S I L V E R S T O N E... What the **** kind of reason is that?!?!?

It took me 5 hours just to get to Towcester after the '06 GP, and basically cost me the car I was in (radiator exploded in the heat).

The people who are commenting but have never been there should really pay a visit some time. Forget what you see during a GP weekend on TV, its literally painful to walk around some parts of the circuit! (go and you'll see what I mean).

Heritage..... ********, nowhere has heritage unless they start racing there.

... and the BRDC.. The BRDC clubhouse is packed during F1, the rest of the time it is virtually empty. I have watched BTCC from the BRDC Grandstand and (with my friends) have been the ONLY people in there.

The whole place is SHABBY!!!! It's not bad at all really when it's tintops and the ticket prices are less than £30, but paying £130+ for GP tickets, when you can't see, hear or read whats going on or where drivers are in the field!??!?

Bottom line, though it may not be a big improvement, I cannot see Donington being any worse.

[Peter Mallett]

Um,

Answering Henk 4.

I'm not sure I understand you entirely there. But I think you are suggesting that Silverstone is not as good a circuit as Donington but it has better facilities/logistics. I can probably see the point in that but they are two different places and as such present different challenges for the driver so it is of little importance whether the circuit is perceived to be good or bad really.

The fact of the matter is that no matter how much money is spent, Silverstone is the only logical place in the UK for a GP.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Um,

Answering Henk 4.

I'm not sure I understand you entirely there. But I think you are suggesting that Silverstone is not as good a circuit as Donington but it has better facilities/logistics. I can probably see the point in that but they are two different places and as such present different challenges for the driver so it is of little importance whether the circuit is perceived to be good or bad really.

The fact of the matter is that no matter how much money is spent, Silverstone is the only logical place in the UK for a GP.

I go there not to drive but to shoot pictures. I cannot judge the tracks as such. (And I think that is also Bernie's least concern, otherwise, why are they at Monaco? ) (and for that I never go to an F1 event, for me it is not worth the money....but Silverstone Classic and LMS are coming up) (Edit: Donington offers more interesting points for track shots..)

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Matski

These are only my two cent's...

I go to Silverstone a few times a year, so I'm relatively familiar with the place. The GP is my LEAST favourite event.

The Silverstone slogan for the past few years has been "BECAUSE ITS SILVERSTONE"... How infuriating is that?! Like they EXPECT to be on the calender JUST B E C A U S E I T S S I L V E R S T O N E... What the **** kind of reason is that?!?!?

It took me 5 hours just to get to Towcester after the '06 GP, and basically cost me the car I was in (radiator exploded in the heat).

The people who are commenting but have never been there should really pay a visit some time. Forget what you see during a GP weekend on TV, its literally painful to walk around some parts of the circuit! (go and you'll see what I mean).

Heritage..... ********, nowhere has heritage unless they start racing there.

... and the BRDC.. The BRDC clubhouse is packed during F1, the rest of the time it is virtually empty. I have watched BTCC from the BRDC Grandstand and (with my friends) have been the ONLY people in there.

The whole place is SHABBY!!!! It's not bad at all really when it's tintops and the ticket prices are less than £30, but paying £130+ for GP tickets, when you can't see, hear or read whats going on or where drivers are in the field!??!?

Bottom line, though it may not be a big improvement, I cannot see Donington being any worse.

About the only part of your post that I can reasonably take issue with is the last sentence because it is frankly meaningless. Unless you are going to do something better, what's the point of moving?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by henk4

I go there not to drive but to shoot pictures. I cannot judge the tracks as such. (And I think that is also Bernie's least concern, otherwise, why are they at Monaco? ) (and for that I never go to an F1 event, for me it is not worth the money....but Silverstone Classic and LMS are coming up)

Nope, missed the point again. Sorry.

[JohnSSC]

I must admit never having been to any of the tracks in question, therefore my thoughts are simply those of a "fan."

I watched F1 practice today and had to endure Peter Windsor blathering about the deal. He (of course) holds BE blameless faulting the BRDC for (gasp) wanting to turn a profit from the single biggest event they have. He also noted that the BRDC has failed to allow Tilke to come in and redesign the track. Further, he said that since none of the other tracks (with the possible exception of Monaco) turn a profit, the BRDC should not expect to either. He implied that it was in fact a sort of "how dare they" situation - if BE says things should be a certain way well then everyone must toe the line. I swear the man works for BE as he makes holding an opposing opinion to BE sound like some sort of serious character flaw...

David Hobbs, God bless him, reacted quite strongly to what Peter said. He pointed out that there is no need to have Tilke "improve" Silverstone because it is perfectly acceptable to race on. I thought Hobbs was going to reach through his microphone and throttle Windsor, to be honest.

I understand that Silverstone is not perfect, but from every description I have read Donington Park is far worse. As Hobbs pointed out the big "advantage" to Donington for F1 is their willingness to give BE whatever he wants.

To me the words "British Grand Prix" and "Silverstone" are (and should be) inextricably linked.

[Knowlesy]

Peter Windsor makes me feel terribly ill at all times.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Nope, missed the point again. Sorry.

Well they are two different tracks with different driver requirements, but since when is that an area of concern for Bernie. I read the whole tread and could not see any comments in that direction, or were they in the related links that I did not open?
If this is not addressing your point may be you should spell it out more clearly or maybe I am too sleepy...

[rotorboy]

Black armband for me at work on Monday...

Whatever people may say about Silverstone, it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up every time I drive through the gates. Sure, the facilities for spectators need upgrading, and I guess F1 must get it's nice pit and paddock complex and further layout change but the sense of history and memories you get when you're there is truly like nothing I've experienced. And I'm (only) 35!! It is deep rooted in the traditions of international motorsport and bit by bit with careful investment will surely become the world-class facility we deserve. Slowly catchy monkey...

As an aside I'm sure Silverstone will survive, at least in the short-to-medium term, as a viable and profitable(?) business, and that may be long enough to see the return of F1 to the venue. I personally would love to have the Aus V8s over, I'm sure I heard sometime ago that this had been costed and came to significantly less than what Bernie's currently demanding for his circus...

Good luck to Donington in any case, I'm in Birmingham so it's six and two-threes for me to travel to marshal in terms of distance, I haven't had the pleasure of Donny yet though, best get myself up there quick!

One love all.

[JohnSSC]

The term "shill" springs readily to mind whenever I hear him (Windsor) speak, as do the words pompous, fawning and the phrase self-important...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I watched F1 practice today and had to endure Peter Windsor blathering about the deal. He (of course) holds BE blameless faulting the BRDC for (gasp) wanting to turn a profit from the single biggest event they have. He also noted that the BRDC has failed to allow Tilke to come in and redesign the track. Further, he said that since none of the other tracks (with the possible exception of Monaco) turn a profit, the BRDC should not expect to either. He implied that it was in fact a sort of "how dare they" situation - if BE says things should be a certain way well then everyone must toe the line. I swear the man works for BE as he makes holding an opposing opinion to BE sound like some sort of serious character flaw...

Which is the point I've made several times here. Who is going to 'invest' GBP100M into a venture that will not generate any payback ? Am I missing something fundamental here ?

[Peter Mallett]

Again @ Henk4. Understood. But in fact having driven both, they are equally challenging. In fact if they make the suggested changes to Donington, then I suspect it will be less challenging, but as you say, Bernie doesn't care really.

[Shelagh]

Apologies for chucking this in - taken from the Marshals' Forum and dumped without getting up to speed on this thread:

"When Tom Wheatcroft re-developed Donington, he kept the basic outline of the 1930's circuit. That has meant a link of sorts to the circuit's origins. Will Herr Tilke do the same if this goes ahead????"

Concern is that we will lose a really historic circuit. Will Tilke destroy Starkey's Bridge and the memorials there?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Again @ Henk4. Understood. But in fact having driven both, they are equally challenging. In fact if they make the suggested changes to Donington, then I suspect it will be less challenging, but as you say, Bernie doesn't care really.

OK, and from what I understood, the main reason for the intended move was hardly the SS track lay-out. And it has to be said the one modern F1 race that Donington hosted, turned out to be a very memorable one...

[JohnSSC]

I can't fathom, davyboy, how making a profit from the race could NOT be a priority to the venue!

Windsor went on at some length slagging the BRDC. I am paraphrasing here but he ripped them to shreds for not accepting the "program" (as he called it) of bringing in Tilke, building the amenities BE wants, blah, blah, blah. I am sitting there thinking: "This is Silverstone, for God's sake not Abu Boo-Boo or wherever the heck the generic New Circuit of the Week is" and at the base of things there has to be (for me at least) some sense of the history of the sport, a continuity if you will from one era to the other. The tracks used to be that link although I am at the point where perhaps BE should have Tilke design a giant circuit that can arranged 19 different ways, all looking vaguely familiar and giving us completely generic, vanilla and non-descript racing that Tilke-Rings are famous for. We can call it: "Circuit de Doldrum" or some such.

If investing GBP100M is such a good idea, why isn't BE doing it? Perhaps, the answer is that it isn't such a good idea...

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well for one, as has been suggested, there is no firm planning permission published but as I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong), if the building line of the property isn’t affected then the permission (as far as construction goes) is a formality. However the environmental issues are more difficult to resolve.

The layout posted earlier actually looks interesting, except it takes away one of the two main overtaking places on the circuit. Add to that the loss of Coppice as a difficult corner and you really have (IMO) got your work cut out to make this interesting for the driver based on that plan, but we’ll stick with it because we have nothing else ATM.

The need to expend over £100m in two years (in fact 18 months because it will need inspection) is somewhat optimistic, especially in light of the current economic climate. There may be a plan to take advantage of the UK construction market by squeezing the price on the basis of available cash, which is OK until you find that the cheapest company was only cheap because it had sold its assets to pay off its dept. Then who does Bernie sue when there’s no track? The process of design, specifying and tendering £100m of work is approx 8 months even if you fast track and design/build it. After that there’s the pain of developing the design to meet what you actually need which adds cost and time, to the extent…………….. well I made that point earlier. The cash flow on that would suggest a major contractor not a small outfit due to the normal payment structure of these projects. That means the £100m is really £135 (ish).

So, if this is going to work then the planning/environmental approval must necessarily be completed and received and the tenders must already be out there (any QS worth his salt will concur with this). A negotiated single source bid process would need serious support from the major investors which would also take time. In which case there’s at least three months of decision making to go.

Now we are down to 15 months. (Cash flow again?).

The circuit changes are possibly the most difficult of the entire scheme. Building techniques are pretty straightforward so the construction of the new pits etc. are unlikely to be critical path, however to realign the track will need a clear period, and let’s not forget that to build the new pit buildings etc. we have to cross the track layout with cables, pipes etc. (if we consider the design as posted), so unless they are closing the circuit now we have at least four more months to go (not allowing for weather), so our construction schedule is now 11 months. Looks tight doesn’t it? Taking an average man hour rate of £80.00 per hour including plant, materials, overheads and labour that means 700 people working on site! Where will they fit?

I notice a contract has been signed so taking that at face value, it means the owners of the circuit have got some serious work to do. Personally I think it’s a shame because unlike many I believe Silverstone and what it stands for is important in world wide motor sport (it is a bloody good circuit too). Donington was always a spectacular but ultimately small time bit player in international motor sport, but it has a place because of that. Now, if this goes ahead, that has been lost and for me that is the biggest shame. Donington is going to be Bahrain with extra “rain”. Nothing more, nothing less.

Good luck to them but for me it is just one more nail in the coffin of Formula 1. Oh wait, it isn't that anymore is it?

BTW. My calcs are open to critique.

As a Civil/Structural Engineer, I’d say, your guesstimate is on the optimistic side. Even as you say with take that 2001 scheme, the serious work will be the ground works around the new complex section at the east end of the current start line straight, and the new pit paddock complex along Starkey’s.
With the ground falling away down towards the lower part of the circuit, the groundwork’s needed to build a new F1 pit complex on the north side of Starkey’s would be very time consuming and very expensive. There would also be the issue moving the current museum on the south side, and all the new infrastructure reqd for toilet blocks and all manor of other stuff that you wouldn’t believe will need doing.

Donny will have to shut now for it to stand a chance of happening.

But the real issue is there’s NO WAY any external highways work would get done in time, so it will be a disaster.

I agree with others, it’s a deliberate ploy by the Poison Dwarf to get rid of the British GP, as come the eleventh hour Donny won’t be ready and nor will Sillystone be able to take it at short notice if they haven’t done any further upgrades, so no British GP.

[djinvicta]

I dont agree with "losing" the Gp from Silverstone. Having NOT read the 141 posts, this is owt to do with sport, its money. Reading a few good comments here, the belief that this world carries on with a "sport" is lost. Its all down to money money, scratching backs etc etc; not Fangio, not heritage, not belief in UK motorsport. Its money, full stop. Donington will probably not come up to spec which will give cause to scrap a UK GP. Its politics; its about 1 million returned from the Gov re the fags bribe; its deeper than all that; its Damon trying to be decent; its others trying to be gentlemen in a sport thats not now for gentlemen. MONEY..

[Stuart H]

By reading some of the threads; this has got me thinking.

With the possable redelevopment of Donnington Park, the cuircuit owners will have to fine the money from some where. Small clubs like VSCC for instance wont run meetings because they cant afford the horrific hikes in curcuit fees.

Other clubs like BARC or 750 motor club for instance would push up entry fees to cover the hire of the curcuit.

Think it would be a concern to every one if club start walking away from curcuits.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

As a Civil/Structural Engineer, I’d say, your guesstimate is on the optimistic side. Even as you say with take that 2001 scheme, the serious work will be the ground works around the new complex section at the east end of the current start line straight, and the new pit paddock complex along Starkey’s......................................................................................... ....................................................

Donny will have to shut now for it to stand a chance of happening.

But the real issue is there’s NO WAY any external highways work would get done in time, so it will be a disaster.

I agree with others, it’s a deliberate ploy by the Poison Dwarf to get rid of the British GP, as come the eleventh hour Donny won’t be ready and nor will Sillystone be able to take it at short notice if they haven’t done any further upgrades, so no British GP.

Thanks, you've just demonstrated why people employ me.

But seriously I was being optimistic and yes its a complete farce.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

About the only part of your post that I can reasonably take issue with ...

Thats fair enough, I was only stating my opinions, not facts, but these opinions are based on experience.. as a paying spectator to numerous events from F1, to HSCC, to BTCC, 24hr races (where I have slept in the grandstand), to BSBK, to GT's, to A1GP testing, to LMS hopefully for the first time this year etc.. I would say that my opinion is valid enough...

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

... is the last sentence because it is frankly meaningless. Unless you are going to do something better, what's the point of moving?

Errm, one word really, VARIETY - I don't see whats bad about that?

I'm not here saying Donington is better than Silverstone, but it should be given the same chances as Silverstone had, and other than peoples issues with Donington I haven't really heard any tangible reasons it should stay at Silverstone (that cannot be rectified)

... as far as the politics behind it go ... I have no opinion, maybe it's a conspiracy, maybe it's business, it could be in the long term interest of the sport, who knows.

PEACE

[djinvicta]

Come on, lets get real. Since when was F1 a "sport"?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Come on, lets get real. Since when was F1 a "sport"?

better ask the question,:When did it stop being one?

[Peter Mallett]

Ok,

Points taken. But variety was what we in the UK had before 1985(?) when it alternated between Silverstone and Brands. It was no problem to any of us and it shouldn't be any problem now. the trouble is you as a spectator cannot divorce yourself from the politics because it is directly affecting you.

Ergo just saying I don't care really doesn't hit the spot with this particular debate, which is more about, can Donington actually achieve its aims or is it another Bernie attempt at taking the GP from the UK to the far east?

I subscribe to the latter.