Renault is streamlining the European formula racing ladder

[NaBUru38]

http://tentenths.com/news/showentry.php?e=1286

Renault Sport will offer FR2.0 and FR3.5 testing to formula racing champions from around the world. We have discussed how there are too many champonships fighting to each other, but here Renault (who runs several of them) seems to be helping to establish a simple path: karting -> lower formulae -> FR2.0 -> F3 -> FR3.5 -> GP2.

What do you think about this policy of Renault Sport? Also, I have a question: if GP3 cars are less powerful, where does it fit, after or before FR3.5?

[bella]

i think the tests are an excellent idea. i know they're different cars, but i bet you good money that a driver looking at either a first year in gp2 or a first year in fr3.5 will gain less from the year in gp2 than they do in fr3.5.

the structure of the wsr events is the exact opposite to f1 and thus gp2 - a driver can invite as many guests as he wants and they get their series as top billing alongside a f1 car. it doesn't cost the driver and his management anything for paddock tickets, etc. if by the time he gets to gp2 he hasn't got the attention of a f1 team or someone with a really big wallet already well... it's not going to end well is it.

i think the competitiveness of gp2 is ruined by the fact that those with good sized wallets don't see fr3.5 as a year to do some quiet learning. it's excellent they're inviting the f3 drivers in because they're a) a captive audience and b) simply by being in f3 they're also going to be by and large, better and more experienced with the tecchie side than the fr2.0 guys. they'll have experienced good and bad engineers by this point, and different ways of working. they'll also know what money can buy you and what it can't. in theory.

as a commercial decision you can't fault it. when they first announced the scheme way back when it was the first time they've actually bothered to market the series to drivers. it's not because it's struggling - this year i think has shown they're really not, there's been money around and drivers have hung around for the whole year by and large - a year or two ago you were seeing drives chop and change hands on a meeting by meeting basis.

i think it's really important that drivers consider fford to be a valid route into f3 as well as fr2.0 though. you might get more f1 circuit experience from throwing money at the eurocup for example but can you really beat fford?

as for gp3, i view it as being the same as f2. "they" are right to be trying to bypass it and shove it out of the most common paths (and ones in which a driver can gain top notch experience) to f1.

that's really a bit of a brain dump and half of it's my opinion and half of it is just a view. sorry

[chunterer]

Bella reckon you've finished the thread in one post!!!

I think in light of everyone's feelings about F2 and GP3 and most people's soft spot for F3 this is a very significant bit of promotion.

Maybe we can stick the thread after the weekend, otherwise we'll have too many Renault based threads at the top of our section!!

Second thoughts let's stick the thread this week as the finale isn't until next weekend!! Doh!!

[chunterer]

I'm not completely clear about something you said bella and I think i'm about to confuse myself!!

F Ford whilst undoubtedly still important for a junior driver is no longer the key stepping stone for the aspiring driver, Formula Renault 2.0, whilst simplistically a level above Ford, appears to be taking talent away being the more marketable proposition both in the UK and Eurocup formats.

In days gone as we know Ford had the sub F3 arena covered with 1600 and 2000. GM and then latterly Renault put paid to that.

Now with both GP3 and 'F2' in there F3 is under threat as FFord was 20 years ago. Can F3 survive? It's an infinitely better category in terms of quality and development for a driver but if either the FIA or Bernie decides something is worth doing, anything is possible I guess.

What Renault offers (now with them piloting the French FR1.6 series on the WSR bill this year) is a complete ladder after karts all the way to GP2 if a driver/academy so wishes.

Hell what's to stop Renault starting a major leage series above GP2 or more likely WSR 3.5 if F1 continues to be such a close shop?

[bella]

something else has struck me too, about how f2 could be better positioned than we thought.

fford is going for turbos like f1 is supposed to be, isn't it? that could help it to survive - not only can a young driver learn a proper car inside out, they can also learn how to use a turbo. one of dean stoneman's comments at barcelona (i can't remember if it was from renaultsport or autosport) was that it took him a while to get used to there not being a turbo in the fr3.5 car like there is in a f2 car and it required a different approach to a corner entirely. it will be interesting to see how the "ladder" series adapt - if at all - to the change in engines. stuff that uses big beasts of engines like fr3.5 and gp2 could become irrelevant to f1 cars. it could also be that as a result renault's involvement just devolves, in the same way it has evolved gradually now to be such an important part.

in that respect, making f3 more and more appealing and tinkering with the format and so on is a smart move - the next smart move would also be turbos just to make sure it stays relevant for young drivers.

one thing about the fr1.6 series - that's now back off the wsr bill after being "introduced" as it were in 2010. seems to me this years drivers got a pretty good deal...

i think in the end an able driver will prevail, will learn from what he has available and from any engineers, good or otherwise and will succeed no matter which formulae he chooses or is able to afford.

just one thing. a couple of fr3.5 teams have had to sit out these recent tests due to a lack of drivers. wednesday afternoon's champions tests seem to have pre-empted that lack of interest quite nicely and provided a bunch of drivers who may or may not have considered the series as a valid alternative before with an opportunity to have a go and get the taste for the cars.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I
Now with both GP3 and 'F2' in there F3 is under threat as FFord was 20 years ago. Can F3 survive? It's an infinitely better category in terms of quality and development for a driver but if either the FIA or Bernie decides something is worth doing, anything is possible I guess.

What Renault offers (now with them piloting the French FR1.6 series on the WSR bill this year) is a complete ladder after karts all the way to GP2 if a driver/academy so wishes.

Hell what's to stop Renault starting a major leage series above GP2 or more likely WSR 3.5 if F1 continues to be such a close shop?

I doubt Renault would start up another series. I would think their plate would be full enough now.

I was surprised when GP3 got started as surely it just muddies the waters further. F3 seems to be overpriced and out of touch compared to the new upstarts.

I'd like to see the newer FRenault car in person and see how it compares to the old Tatuus.

[strider]

I don't want to seem ungrateful, but for British F3 it's a bit of a waste of time, isn't it?

Jean-Eric Vergne has already been racing and winning in WSR and is committed to it for next year, whilst James Calado is already committed to GP3. Not the best move in my opinion, but that's another issue.

[bella]

Originally Posted by strider

I don't want to seem ungrateful, but for British F3 it's a bit of a waste of time, isn't it?

for the short term, perhaps. but it's not about the short term is it?

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I'd like to see the newer FRenault car in person and see how it compares to the old Tatuus.

take the old one, and hit a tyrewall with it on each side, then beat it with the ugly stick for good measure.

but seriously, it seems to have a longer wheelbase, whether that's just a trick of the eye because of the design i don't know.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by bella

it will be interesting to see how the "ladder" series adapt - if at all - to the change in engines [i.e. turbos]. stuff that uses big beasts of engines like fr3.5 and gp2 could become irrelevant to f1 cars. it could also be that as a result renault's involvement just devolves, in the same way it has evolved gradually now to be such an important part.

in that respect, making f3 more and more appealing and tinkering with the format and so on is a smart move - the next smart move would also be turbos just to make sure it stays relevant for young drivers.

F3 cars should switch to the new 1.6 turbo engines from WTCC and WRC, so several brands can support the championships. But I wonder how much they cost and how reliable they are.

GP3 already has 2.0 turbo engines, and since this car is supposed to last three years, GP2 could get turbo engines for 2013.

[bella]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

F3 cars should switch to the new 1.6 turbo engines from WTCC and WRC, so several brands can support the championships. But I wonder how much they cost and how reliable they are.

GP3 already has 2.0 turbo engines, and since this car is supposed to last three years, GP2 could get turbo engines for 2013.

so in theory... the smart thing to do is in a couple of years take the gp3 engines, MAKE THEM SOUND BETTER!!, stuff them in a f3 car and keep the f3 aero/engineering regs, then merge the f3 euroseries concept with gp3 et voila. the next level above the fr2.0 eurocup, existing history and prestige, and a captive audience of teams, drivers and spectators.

which is no doubt the exact opposite of what will happen.

[cleanup]

Jean-Eric Vergne has already been racing and winning in WSR and is committed to it for next year, whilst James Calado is already committed to GP3. Not the best move in my opinion, but that's another issue.[/QUOTE]

Hi Strider, be great to hear your opinion,what do you think Calado should do and why? Interested to know your experienced view, from what I see, there seems to be a wide variation of opinions about the benefits of GP3.

[strider]

Originally Posted by cleanup

Hi Strider, be great to hear your opinion,what do you think Calado should do and why? Interested to know your experienced view, from what I see, there seems to be a wide variation of opinions about the benefits of GP3.

I have to be careful because I don't know as much about him as I should, but he seems to be one of those drivers who hasn't quite fulfilled peoples expectations of him.

In 2009 he was runner-up to Dean Smith in Formula Renault UK despite winning the most races and being considered the fastest driver. Smith didn't even join in until the second round, but still won by 34 points. That suggests a lack of consistency.

No-one could say he was the fastest driver in BF3 this year because Jean-Eric Vergne was there. But on occasion, particularly in the wet he was outstanding. In the last race of the season at Brands he was masterful. Vergne even slid off whilst trying to keep up with him. He also out-raced Vergne at Silverstone earlier, also in the wet, when they raced wheel-to-wheel for several laps.

I would have preferred RSF to have put him WSR next season, even if it meant that he was still racing Vergne, but instead they've him in GP3. I still have doubts about that formula, but at least he'll be with the best team. Maybe this will be the chance for him to win a title at this level. He needs one on the CV.

[strider]

Originally Posted by bella

for the short term, perhaps. but it's not about the short term is it?

You're right of course, but who exactly pays for these tests? Is it Renault, or the series promoters or a mixture of both? I'm sure the teams won't do them for love.

[ivanalesi]

Btw, on FIA's website in the F3 regulations is written what is expected to happen for the next generation of cars and so on. 1.6 turbos are really planned, but even w/o the engine bill, F3 is still very expensive

[bella]

Originally Posted by strider

You're right of course, but who exactly pays for these tests? Is it Renault, or the series promoters or a mixture of both? I'm sure the teams won't do them for love.

i'm not entirely sure that matters in the long run. it's only an afternoon, and the only one to be invited and not turn up was edoardo mortara - which i'm not sure wasn't a political thing related to the italian racing federation. so if they all turned up it must have been a worthwhile exercise for the drivers...

the only problem for teams may have been that one or two of them struggled to get drivers for the collective test before that, but they evidently had to go to motorland anyway for this half day at the end of it. without that some could have left after the barcelona test last week and saved a weeks worth of hotel bills.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by bella

the only one to be invited and not turn up was edoardo mortara

I think the clashing GP3 test also led some other invitees to regretfully decline.

[bella]

ah yes of course, my mistake. considering all these series are appealing to the same drivers the least they could do is try not to clash. but that's the same world in which the btcc and f3 race on the same bill and f1 stops whining about hotels not being singapore standard

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by bella

ah yes of course, my mistake. considering all these series are appealing to the same drivers the least they could do is try not to clash. but that's the same world in which the btcc and f3 race on the same bill and f1 stops whining about hotels not being singapore standard

Woah steady on if you're gonna be running BTCC and F3 together why not have both of them support the British round of the GP2 (should it ever not be on the Bernie circus of course) and also on the bill would be FR2.0 and Formula Ford.

Bring back a proper day's racing card!!!

Back to the Renault thing. I'm not sure F3 in its current guise is finished yet. Maybe we will have to wait and see but I guess we need to see how Gutierrez and the next couple of GP3 champions get on in their subsequent couple of seasons. If they do well in GP2/FR 3.5 and then stun in F1, then all aspiring drivers and team bosses might as well bypass F3 with GP3.

If not on the other hand, F3 may continue to be the one everyone still wants to do.

I am sure though that in 3 or 3 years time F2 will be gone and one of either F3 or GP3 will be the only series to do at F3 level.

Unless Renault come up with a 'super' FR2.0!!!!

[Rf1 Fan]

ART should race in Eurocup 2.0 in 2011.

[strider]

Originally Posted by bella

i'm not entirely sure that matters in the long run. it's only an afternoon, and the only one to be invited and not turn up was edoardo mortara - which i'm not sure wasn't a political thing related to the italian racing federation. so if they all turned up it must have been a worthwhile exercise for the drivers...

I don't think Calado was there either, but there wouldn't be any point, would there? Maybe his invitation went to Oli Webb, who was there.

[JohnMiller]

Buzaid had his spot.

[strider]

Thanks John.