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Old 22 Dec 2015, 10:51 (Ref:3599406)   #76
Greem
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The discussion around comms is of some significant interest, given that various clubs run meetings at different circuits in different ways according to "local tradition" (as far as I've been able to determine, anyway).

I'm rarely without a radio when I'm at Donington, Rockingham or Silverstone but that's because the club I do most of my marshalling with (BRSCC Midland Centre) provide all (most!) posts with a radio. I have however done meetings with other clubs in the last few years who still use the phones at Donington, largely as I understand it because they are there and mean nobody has to lug boxloads of radios around with them.

As long as decent radio comms etiquette is observed (whole different subject!), instantaneous deployment of flags/boards/brushes/pork pies is most definitely achievable, and is achieved on a regular basis.

I'll be responding to the consultation to include that (maybe not the pork pies bit though).
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Old 22 Dec 2015, 11:14 (Ref:3599409)   #77
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The discussion around comms is of some significant interest, given that various clubs run meetings at different circuits in different ways according to "local tradition" (as far as I've been able to determine, anyway).

I'm rarely without a radio when I'm at Donington, Rockingham or Silverstone but that's because the club I do most of my marshalling with (BRSCC Midland Centre) provide all (most!) posts with a radio. I have however done meetings with other clubs in the last few years who still use the phones at Donington, largely as I understand it because they are there and mean nobody has to lug boxloads of radios around with them.

As long as decent radio comms etiquette is observed (whole different subject!), instantaneous deployment of flags/boards/brushes/pork pies is most definitely achievable, and is achieved on a regular basis.

I'll be responding to the consultation to include that (maybe not the pork pies bit though).
With a small amount of investment, we could have US style landline at Donington - just need headsets connecting to the phones. We then all dial into a conference call in the morning and buttons on the headsets take us off mute when we need to speak. Used this system at Road America in the summer and its perfect simultaneous comms......
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Old 22 Dec 2015, 14:43 (Ref:3599437)   #78
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If the Code 60 is going out by radio it's going to have to go out on a separate frequency to IO/Post Chief, as that one will be in use dealing with whatever has caused the Code 60.

If they're aiming for simultaneous deployment of flags, I imagine they'll use a countdown similar to the one during the last Formula E race for the Full Course Yellow, to make sure they all go out at the same time. That said, it didn't quite work as the boards and flags looked to be out before the countdown started and the leader, who slowed on seeing the flags, lost about 5 seconds as the drivers behind went off their radios.

Overall, I think this should be seen as another tool in the Clerk of Courses bag not a straight replacement for safety cars. For example, I imagine D&G will still want a safety car if they're dragging a car out of the gravel at Paddock Hill and across the circuit to a place of safety behind Post 7.
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Old 23 Dec 2015, 00:03 (Ref:3599571)   #79
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.........
Overall, I think this should be seen as another tool in the Clerk of Courses bag not a straight replacement for safety cars. For example, I imagine D&G will still want a safety car if they're dragging a car out of the gravel at Paddock Hill and across the circuit to a place of safety behind Post 7.
I would suggest the fact that cars are circulating at 60 and gaps are fixed would actually mean such an action could easily be done without SC depending on how the traffic is distributed around the circuit.
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Old 23 Dec 2015, 01:23 (Ref:3599577)   #80
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I imagine D&G will still want a safety car if they're dragging a car out of the gravel at Paddock Hill and across the circuit to a place of safety behind Post 7.
In Dubai cars are recovered by local recovery vehicles from all round, and including crossing, the track under Code 60 to the pits in the dead of night on a circuit that is in pitch darkness (apart from the start/finish straight and main grands stands).
I'm sure D&G have far more experience and savvy than the UAE crews so they should be able to do recoveries in the daylight without a SC.
You guys really have got to witness Code 60 in action to see the enormous benefits of it. This is coming from a SC observer who is rapidly talking himself into a redundant job.
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Old 24 Dec 2015, 19:23 (Ref:3600011)   #81
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Equip flag marshals with radios? Is there a circuit where there is not a radio available to either the PC or I/O on any post.
Plenty. Even at Silverstone you only get a radio with some clubs, usually you're miles from anywhere with no comms and the next post ½ mile away!

If it can't be done simultaneously, can it honestly be said to work as intended? Delays can be significant if you're in the wrong place, facing the wrong way and waving something else at the time.

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landlines take too long IMO.
If it's too slow, you haven't used a landline. You've probably used a telephone which is entirely different. Landline is an open comms system so that if RC shout Code 60 and counts down, everyone hears the same thing at the same time.
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Old 25 Dec 2015, 12:30 (Ref:3600142)   #82
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And of course at Silverstone there are posts where the Observer is the opposite side of the track to the flaggies or 100 yards away, so you need 2, one for each.
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Old 25 Dec 2015, 19:11 (Ref:3600172)   #83
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And of course at Silverstone there are posts where the Observer is the opposite side of the track to the flaggies or 100 yards away, so you need 2, one for each.
And at Mallory and Anglesey and Oulton and probably others.

But it's still a good idea once the comms is sorted out. And presumably any clubs that can't sort it out simply won't use Code 60 just like some clubs/series currently don't use a Safety Car. It's just an additional option, isn't it ?

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Old 25 Dec 2015, 20:56 (Ref:3600185)   #84
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I have just had a look at this thread.

As the Marshals Club rep on Race Committee (where this proposal originated) I can assure you all that your comments are taken into account - and put across BY ME!

This proposal has been considered and supported by very experienced Clerks who have used it in other countries.

The code 60 flag has been proposed as an ADDITIONAL tool for the clerk of the course to use in the case of a serious incident. Getting a safety car out, finding the leader, controlling the chain, then allowing the marshals to work, then getting the safety car back in, then releasing the train can take a minimum of 3 or 4 laps, and can result in races finishing under safety car. We also have cars trying to catch the end of the train so marshals cannot get out there until the train is established.

Code 60 is a useful tool to control cars on the circuit immediately, allow marshals to do their job in relative safety and get the cars back racing as efficiently as possible.

It has been proven to work in other countries in many forms of racing.

Yes, we need to ensure we get the flags out as quickly as possible and radio instruction will be the best, but using the same system as for the safety car (display in both directions, withdraw in both directions) is the best way we can implement the system if all flag posts are not on radio.

Enforcement will be by using timekeeper readouts as well as reports from Post Chiefs.

The tool is there for the clerks to use IF THEY DEEM IT APPROPRIATE, but I sincerely hope they will! (But if Dave doesn't want to use it he does not have to!)

The Battenburg flag was discussed at length on several occasions but was rejected.

We want to find a system to enable marshals to do their jobs but to ensure racing continues. We believe the code 60 does just that.

BRSCC may be trying full course yellows at international level endurance races next season as yet another alternative, but we have not yet discussed this implementation at National level meetings.

Consultation is exactly that – if you have constructive criticism or comments then please make them. If you fear they will not be taken into account then copy me in on them and I will take them into account when Race Committee meet again to discuss the outcome of the consultation period.
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Old 25 Dec 2015, 20:59 (Ref:3600186)   #85
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Old 25 Dec 2015, 21:01 (Ref:3600187)   #86
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As I said earlier, I have no particular preference, as long as we can do our job quickly and safely for the benefit of all.

If the result of this discussion is a solid comms system in use at all events then it will get my wholehearted support just for that.
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Old 26 Dec 2015, 19:16 (Ref:3600295)   #87
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I've just skimmed this thread so apologies if this has already been said.

Instead of using a set speed limit for drivers to stick to, which by all accounts sounds difficult to police and difficult for drivers to know how fast they're going, get the drivers to stick to a minimum lap time (similar to VSC in F1)

How it could work:

First thing in the morning, get the safety car to do three laps of the track at 60 KPH. Take the average lap time, make that the "Code 60" lap time.

Race comes, someone bins it - CoC shouts "Code 60." The flag/light/pigeon relays the message to the drivers, the drivers slow down to achieve that lap time set by the safety car in the morning. Everyone circulates at that lap time, everyone is safe, everyone knows where they stand.

-
I've never been anywhere where they've used C60, but I've been track side during a VSC in F1 and felt perfectly safe.
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Old 26 Dec 2015, 21:20 (Ref:3600300)   #88
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I've just skimmed this thread so apologies if this has already been said.

Instead of using a set speed limit for drivers to stick to, which by all accounts sounds difficult to police and difficult for drivers to know how fast they're going, get the drivers to stick to a minimum lap time (similar to VSC in F1)

How it could work:

First thing in the morning, get the safety car to do three laps of the track at 60 KPH. Take the average lap time, make that the "Code 60" lap time.

Race comes, someone bins it - CoC shouts "Code 60." The flag/light/pigeon relays the message to the drivers, the drivers slow down to achieve that lap time set by the safety car in the morning. Everyone circulates at that lap time, everyone is safe, everyone knows where they stand.

-
I've never been anywhere where they've used C60, but I've been track side during a VSC in F1 and felt perfectly safe.
Two questions about your proposal:
1. when the Code 60 is initiated, all drivers are on part of a lap; how do they know how fast / slow to go for the remainder of that lap to hit the target lap time? (those near the end of a lap will need to slow far more than those on the first half of the lap, surely this gives dangerous closing speeds?)
2. once a car starts a new lap, how does the driver know how to drive to the target time? Surely more cars have speedos than in-car laptimers, and for those that don't have either isn't it cheaper to fit a speedo than laptimer gear?

I'd just emphasise again that Code 60 as currently in use is immediate
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Old 26 Dec 2015, 23:11 (Ref:3600318)   #89
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As I said earlier, I have no particular preference, as long as we can do our job quickly and safely for the benefit of all.

If the result of this discussion is a solid comms system in use at all events then it will get my wholehearted support just for that.
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Old 26 Dec 2015, 23:16 (Ref:3600320)   #90
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Yup
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Old 26 Dec 2015, 23:47 (Ref:3600324)   #91
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An action that I know works, is for Marshals to put themselves in an easily seen position (but SAFE) and point a Flag at a car or groups and do the big two handed "slow down" gesture

However, short of throwing out road spikes or some other drastic measure, there are some drivers who just have brain fade, don't get it or are in a dream and will transgress no matter what trackside officials do
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Old 26 Dec 2015, 23:59 (Ref:3600329)   #92
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First thing in the morning, get the safety car to do three laps of the track at 60 KPH. Take the average lap time, make that the "Code 60" lap time.
There's no need for messing about with a safety car in the morning. All the circuits we race at have a known circuit length. Even I could easily do the maths to calculate a 60 kph lap time for each circuit. It could be printed well in advance e.g. in the final instructions along with the information that Code 60 might be used.

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Old 27 Dec 2015, 00:03 (Ref:3600331)   #93
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First thing in the morning, get the safety car to do three laps of the track at 60 KPH. Take the average lap time, make that the "Code 60" lap time.
That's a complicated, time-consuming & inaccurate way of arriving at a figure that can be arrived at by a simple calculation!
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Old 27 Dec 2015, 00:17 (Ref:3600336)   #94
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et the safety car to do three laps of the track at 60 KPH.
Have you tried getting a SC driver to do one lap at 60kph let alone THREE laps.
Impossible.

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Old 28 Dec 2015, 00:23 (Ref:3600477)   #95
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Have you tried getting a SC driver to do one lap at 60kph let alone THREE laps.
Impossible.
Even more difficult if you are trying to re-attach the lights to the roof at the same time!
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Old 28 Dec 2015, 08:57 (Ref:3600500)   #96
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An action that I know works, is for Marshals to put themselves in an easily seen position (but SAFE) and point a Flag at a car or groups and do the big two handed "slow down" gesture

However, short of throwing out road spikes or some other drastic measure, there are some drivers who just have brain fade, don't get it or are in a dream and will transgress no matter what trackside officials do
I've had a good look through the BB and I can't find "the big two handed slow down sign" listed. Has it been through consultation yet?
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Old 28 Dec 2015, 17:25 (Ref:3600567)   #97
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I've had a good look through the BB and I can't find "the big two handed slow down sign" listed. Has it been through consultation yet?
Surely it's there? Right next to the two-fingered 'that was my corner' signal.
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Old 16 Jan 2016, 16:34 (Ref:3605367)   #98
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I have worked trackside on a live circuit under both SC and a Code60. I can honestly say that I feel a hell of a lot safer dealing with an incident under Code60 than I do with a SC.

Code 60 is given out over the radios with a countdown of 3...2...1...code60 this allows all of the posts to get ready with the flag so each post can display the flag simultaneously. This is the same for when the code 60 ends and the racing resumes with the green flag. Every circuit I have been to, there is a radio on each post for flaggies to hear.

With a code 60, every driver is driving in a slow and sensible manner...under a SC, some drivers feel the need to drive like nutters in order to catch up with the train of cars causing a greater risk to marshals working trackside.

Code60 will be getting my vote for use in the UK!
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Old 18 Jan 2016, 13:38 (Ref:3605928)   #99
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Surely it's there? Right next to the two-fingered 'that was my corner' signal.
Or the one fingered "penultimate lap" hand signal
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Old 19 Jan 2016, 15:34 (Ref:3606230)   #100
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Every circuit I have been to, there is a radio on each post for flaggies to hear.
I agree that Code 60 is absolutely a better system if practical - but in the UK, radios that flag marshals can hear is very much the exception rather than the rule. As a result, good though it is, I do not feel that it is practical in the UK at the moment. This was the gist of my comments to the MSA.
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