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Old 27 Sep 2010, 10:34 (Ref:2765345)   #16
Born Racer
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Oh great, this again!
It's a different question to one I've seen elsewhere and has been put in its own thread to avoid debates about the lack of merits (or merits) of team orders.
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Old 27 Sep 2010, 11:11 (Ref:2765361)   #17
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Originally Posted by Born Racer View Post
Can anyone else use team orders now or is just the favoured team?

Do you have to pay $100,000?

No doubt the tifosi will say this is sour grapes, but it's a genuine question? Has there been any consensus on whether it's allowed for the rest of the season? Martin Whitmarsh and Christian Horner in a BBC interview yesterday seemed to not know.
Whichever side of the fence one sits on the team orders debate, this remains an unanswered question and exposes the FIA's total incompetence in trying to deal with the matter.

Edit: And no it isn't sour grapes - Ferrari need to know were they stand for the rest of the season just as much as the other leading teams. If Ferrari did it again, would it be another $100,000 or a more severe punishment for a second "offence"??
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Old 27 Sep 2010, 13:52 (Ref:2765472)   #18
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Exactly, garcon. I know we sit at other ends of the opinion scale on this issue, but one does wonder what the situation is now. You raise a good point about Ferrari's present situation in this matter.
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Old 1 Oct 2010, 00:10 (Ref:2767518)   #19
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If the FIA was trying to please everyone they partially succeded..... but no one knows whetehr or not it is allowed, because they stuffed it up.

The regulation is still on the books so its still an offence..... which means another team could protest a rival.....
They should have been a little tougher on Ferrari, enforced their position that the rules are the rules, which would have shown some strength, then signalled a change at the end of the season. What we got was weakness, in spades.

Arguing that there was not enough clear evidence was just plain head in the sand stuff and in my opinion Todt failed the first real test of his leadership. Yes he was right to stay away from the decision making but he should have signalled to his lieutenants a more definitive outcome.

What happened was a mess and poorly handled.
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Old 1 Oct 2010, 00:51 (Ref:2767533)   #20
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Wims should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridWims should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
They did penalize Ferrari tho, infact they gave them the hardest possible penalty (100k fine). Maybe they should have gone for a smaller penalty instead, say a stop and go penalty after the race was finished (25 second penalty). Altho who would receive it, Massa or Alonso. Probably Massa as he was the one doing the illegal stuff. Or possibly both
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Old 1 Oct 2010, 01:06 (Ref:2767541)   #21
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Originally Posted by Wims View Post
They did penalize Ferrari tho, infact they gave them the hardest possible penalty (100k fine). Maybe they should have gone for a smaller penalty instead, say a stop and go penalty after the race was finished (25 second penalty). Altho who would receive it, Massa or Alonso. Probably Massa as he was the one doing the illegal stuff. Or possibly both
I would have gone for a time penalty for Alonso as he ostensibly made the gain....but not as much as 25 second, say 10 seconds.....as well as the $100,000 (or $50 000 just for Alonso). That way if a team manager thought it was a gain to him he could have taken the risk and he'd know what the gap needed to be..... at any time in the remainder of the season....

Of course it could always back fire if the 'faster' driver didn't manage to make enough gap or the safety car came out.....
Now no one knows what the rule or the penalty could be....?
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Old 1 Oct 2010, 22:44 (Ref:2767964)   #22
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TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Wims View Post
They did penalize Ferrari tho, infact they gave them the hardest possible penalty (100k fine). Maybe they should have gone for a smaller penalty instead, say a stop and go penalty after the race was finished (25 second penalty). Altho who would receive it, Massa or Alonso. Probably Massa as he was the one doing the illegal stuff. Or possibly both
The financial penalty was a nonsense, and the FIA should have applied a sporting penalty. But what should that be? As the objective of breaking the rules was to improve Alonso's standing in the WDC, any sporting penalty should reverse that situation. BUT:
You can make a case for penalising Ferrari because they told Massa to move over
You can make a case for penalising Massa because he actioned the team orders
It's harder to make a case against Alonso because all he did was overtake a slow-moving car.
Now what's that nickname that everyone uses for Alonso?
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Old 5 Oct 2010, 21:26 (Ref:2769953)   #23
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It is only 7 points for $100k if you manage to get both your cars in 1-2! In old money it us to be free!

Finding a new way to say an outrage doesn't make it any different. Ferrari should be allowed to run their team how they want. However I agree, the fine is silly.
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Old 5 Oct 2010, 21:37 (Ref:2769958)   #24
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E.B should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridE.B should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridE.B should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
.... and wont this discussion liven up if Alonso were to win the WDC by less than 7 points!
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Old 6 Oct 2010, 00:57 (Ref:2770045)   #25
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Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post
The financial penalty was a nonsense, and the FIA should have applied a sporting penalty. But what should that be? As the objective of breaking the rules was to improve Alonso's standing in the WDC, any sporting penalty should reverse that situation. BUT:
You can make a case for penalising Ferrari because they told Massa to move over
You can make a case for penalising Massa because he actioned the team orders
It's harder to make a case against Alonso because all he did was overtake a slow-moving car.
Now what's that nickname that everyone uses for Alonso?
Don't agree.
The team gave an order against the regulations to penalise a driver (Massa)and benefit another driver (Alonso).
From the conversations its ludicrous to suggest Alonso is an innocent party in all this.
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Old 6 Oct 2010, 01:46 (Ref:2770055)   #26
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In regards to a penalty - if found guilty post race, just swap them back around and still give the $100k fine
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Old 6 Oct 2010, 03:22 (Ref:2770068)   #27
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
From the conversations its ludicrous to suggest Alonso is an innocent party in all this.
Didnt Fernando start the ball rolling by telling the team that Felipe was slower than him and delaying him, basically asking for the team to intervene. Going from memory I do certainly recall a pre order whinge from Alonso to the pitwall. Following on from which was the message from Smedley to Massa....

Im happy to be corrected if my memory has let me down.
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Old 6 Oct 2010, 04:16 (Ref:2770075)   #28
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Originally Posted by E.B View Post
Didnt Fernando start the ball rolling by telling the team that Felipe was slower than him and delaying him, basically asking for the team to intervene. Going from memory I do certainly recall a pre order whinge from Alonso to the pitwall. Following on from which was the message from Smedley to Massa....

Im happy to be corrected if my memory has let me down.
No... your memory is correct.....
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Old 6 Oct 2010, 10:54 (Ref:2770189)   #29
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Whilst I agree with you that Alonso wasn't innocent, was there any radio conversation transmitted with him telling them Massa should move over. I only recall the "This is ridiculous" one. However, there are probably a load more which are more telling.
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Old 6 Oct 2010, 17:42 (Ref:2770400)   #30
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Originally Posted by Born Racer View Post
Whilst I agree with you that Alonso wasn't innocent, was there any radio conversation transmitted with him telling them Massa should move over. I only recall the "This is ridiculous" one. However, there are probably a load more which are more telling.
You can go to http://www.formula1.com/video/ and click on the official race video edit..... just click on the German GP button on the menu (not the onboard), at whatever quality you want to watch / listen in.

This what I hear:

Alonso very clearly set the wheels in motion for the switch. This is the order of events and comments as per the video

Alonso to his engineer Andrea Stella, “I am much faster than Felipe,” ........

Andrea Stella then replies: “We got your message.”

Smedley is then heard saying to Massa: “You need to pick up the pace, because Fernando is faster.”

As Alonso tried to pass Massa at one stage just prior to the 'strategy change' Smedley said to Felipe: “Pretty close here, he’s gonna go–you’re going to have to defend”.

Alonso complains that his inability to overtake his team-mate was “ridiculous.” (along with associated toys falling out of pram type noises )

Then of course we had the crunch line from Smedley to Felipe..... “Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?”

Soon after that that time Massa slowed dramatically, pulled to the side of the track and allowed Alonso to pass, resuming racing speed in Alonso's wake.

This was then followed up by Smedley to Felipe with the apology, the thanks to Felipe for playing the game, and of course we also had the 'very very magnanimous' comment from Smedley.

Last edited by E.B; 6 Oct 2010 at 17:48.
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