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Old 15 Oct 2010, 21:45 (Ref:2775555)   #16
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Well F1 has been more 'transparent' that pretty much any other area of motorsport for years. Still not satisfactory. Oh well.
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Old 15 Oct 2010, 21:47 (Ref:2775556)   #17
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i'm interested to know how you'd define that exactly though. every single situation is different - we saw that with the epic drama over the webber/hamilton incident...
My fundamental rule would be that if there is an overlap of two cars, each driver must give the other driver room. So Hamilton didn't give Webber enough room in Singapore. Kobayashi did give Algersuari enough room in Suzuka. At the moment most drivers who get the inside line just run out to the outside kerb and either barge the other driver off the road or force him to drop back. They would have to change their attitude.

Of course at the moment it is difficult to define where the edge of the track is, given that most kerbs are so flat that they are habitually driven over. In my Brave New F1 World, kerbs would be a proper obstacle that keeps drivers within the bounds of the track.
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Old 15 Oct 2010, 21:51 (Ref:2775559)   #18
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Well F1 has been more 'transparent' that pretty much any other area of motorsport for years. Still not satisfactory. Oh well.
I don't think transparency is the issue, it's the lack of consistency and the arbitrary nature of the penalties.
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 01:04 (Ref:2775607)   #19
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I don't think transparency is the issue, it's the lack of consistency and the arbitrary nature of the penalties.
If the reasoning was transparent then the penalties could no longer be arbitrary or inconsistent - without making the decision maker look bad anyway - perhaps this just does not suit the FIA?
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 01:27 (Ref:2775610)   #20
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If the reasoning was transparent then the penalties could no longer be arbitrary or inconsistent - without making the decision maker look bad anyway - perhaps this just does not suit the FIA?
If the reasoning were consistent, then the penalties would no longer be seen to be arbitrary. I don't think it's anything to do with tranparency, F1 isn't deliberately trying to confuse the situation, ex-drivers have been brought in this season to help with decision making process, when it comes to penalties. The problem is there is no consistency when penalties are meeted out and that's what needs to be addressed.
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 02:02 (Ref:2775621)   #21
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Sorry BJ, I am being a bit slow here. How can there be any tranparency when nobody knows the reasoning behind decisions? If the FIA released the full transcript as they have on occcasion then its transparent.

We don't know why they reach the decisions they do, or where they get the penalties from, how is that transparent?
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 19:07 (Ref:2775829)   #22
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Sorry BJ, I am being a bit slow here. How can there be any tranparency when nobody knows the reasoning behind decisions? If the FIA released the full transcript as they have on occcasion then its transparent.

We don't know why they reach the decisions they do, or where they get the penalties from, how is that transparent?
You're not being slow at all. What I'm calling consistency you are calling transparency; i.e we are arguing the same thing.
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 19:53 (Ref:2775849)   #23
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I don't think transparency is the issue, it's the lack of consistency and the arbitrary nature of the penalties.
Maybe it would help if all the incidents were consistent?

As time goes on I have less and less of a problem with all this. I watch rugby and these kind of decisions are made every minute of the game. I suppose it helps because the frequency averages them out.

One thing that is way more inconsistent than the decisions are fans views of them.
Consistency ranking:
1. Race stewards.
2. FIA.
3. Fans.
4. Webber fans.

(ACO and many other series not even in the top five)
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 19:54 (Ref:2775850)   #24
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Oh, in case you were wondering:

5. Biased British Hamilton fans.
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 21:01 (Ref:2775869)   #25
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I am so glad i posted this question , seems to have provoked an interesting discussion . Thankyou for all your thoughts and i hope to be reading some more. I agree that the stewards should release some kind of reasoning behind any penalties, just a few lines just so the fans could understand why . Perhaps this would help in stopping all this rumour about favouritism towards certain teams and orchestration of the championship ?
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 21:03 (Ref:2775870)   #26
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
...
Consistency ranking:
1. Race stewards.
2. FIA.
3. Fans.
4. Webber fans.

(ACO and many other series not even in the top five)
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Oh, in case you were wondering:

5. Biased British Hamilton fans.
6. Michael Schumacher Fans?
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 21:54 (Ref:2775888)   #27
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I agree that the stewards should release some kind of reasoning behind any penalties, just a few lines just so the fans could understand why .
I really don't think this would help. It would just be more words for people to pick inconsistencies in. For instance, if some one believed this:
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Perhaps this would help in stopping all this rumour about favouritism towards certain teams and orchestration of the championship ?
Then an elaboration of decisions wouldn't satisfy them. They would just read something else into it.
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 22:37 (Ref:2775904)   #28
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Maybe it would help if all the incidents were consistent?

As time goes on I have less and less of a problem with all this. I watch rugby and these kind of decisions are made every minute of the game. I suppose it helps because the frequency averages them out.
I find some of the referee's decicions in Rugby Union inconsistent and I find the concept of playing the game to the referee inconsistent; the game shouldn't be dictated by the referee's interpretation of the rules and the same applies to F1.

As to the incident's in F1 not being inconsistent, I think quite a few are consistent, it's the penalties that aren't and that's what people are objecting to.
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 22:58 (Ref:2775916)   #29
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I get that. I just don't think that further explanation will help. Other than to supply more words for people to get giddy about.

As in rugby many people find the rules are inconsistent depending on who is playing.

Or just their view on the rule rather than the application of it.

Also you have to accept that, as with many things, it just isn't possible to always be consistent. Unless two things happen at the same time in exactly the same manner then they are different. F1 isn't a board game. Rules, in both sport, also develop and may be applied differently from one incident to another. Especially if in the mean time we've had some public outrage!
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Old 16 Oct 2010, 23:23 (Ref:2775925)   #30
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I think in Rugby Union many people find the rules are inconsistent, depending on the referee; take the France v England game in the 6 Nations, Jonathan Kaplan's dedicicions (the South African ref) were very questionable.

Yes there is the human equation when it comes to giving penalties in sport but when you get situations, as in Hockenheim this year and the resulting decicision, is it any wonder people despair?
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