Rolling starts the way to go?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Surprised that you say that. As I understand it, for a rolling start your race timing for your car starts at the moment you cross the start line (and are identified by the timing loop), not the moment the red lights go out. That would mean that if you crossed the start line ahead of someone who was supposed to be in front of you on the grid, then you'd have made a jump start. Be interested in anyone who has a definitive answer on this one... or does it depend on individual series regulations?

In most classes, the green light coming on means 'race' (do rolling starts go on the red being extinguished only? I thought not, but could be wrong), but I think it's different for a restart after SC where the green is still preceded by a yellow flag. F1 say you can't overtake before the start line, but then they like to confuse everyone - I couldn't be certain that it's the case in other categories. Someone more knowlegable should clear that one up.

David Leslie said on a commentary once that a rolling start means you have the first corner accident at a higher speed! I tend to think it makes little difference to what happens at the first corner, but it does eliminate start line stalled car shunts which are always very damaging and have a great potential for injury. They also have the potential for total shambles, though, and I remember Richard Dean, on pole position in a Rover Tomcat, crossing the start line in third place and then being told that it was his fault. Never quite understood that one.

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

in the past i have done races run bythe BRSCC where your not allowed to race until you cross the line as thats wrong, and even they seem to of realised that now, when the lights go out you all go, other wise by the time the last car has crossed the line you've lost so much ground to the guys in front of you your race is wrecked

Agree it is wrong, when you think about it, with a standing start everybody goes with the lights going out, even if you are 50 mt from the line.

but I think it's different for a restart after SC where the green is still preceded by a yellow flag. F1 say you can't overtake before the start line, but then they like to confuse everyone - I couldn't be certain that it's the case in other categories. Someone more knowlegable should clear that one up.

You got it in one, with a Saftey Car you are driving under yellow, until you hit the green flag, as per normal you can't pass until after the green flag. F1 rules are the same for the most humble of us in this regard

[216gti]

Not a huge problem, but at Mallory last year the grid had become so stretched out that as the front runners crossed the line we were still at the hairpin giving no chance of making up any ground, especially uphill. Qualify a bit nearer the front I suppose!
Personally I always start quite well so have a natural bias but enjoy both, I'd rather a rolling atart than Eastenders on a Sunday afternoon......

[216gti]

Frauedian slip there, I quite like rolling starts as well !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by falcemob

This is a common mistake some drivers make, you can overtake before the start line providing the reds are out.

Certainly, I do not see a problem! On a Grid Start, overtaking occurs immediately the light signals indicate the Start, so why should a Rolling Start be different?

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by 216gti

Not a huge problem, but at Mallory last year the grid had become so stretched out that as the front runners crossed the line we were still at the hairpin giving no chance of making up any ground, especially uphill. Qualify a bit nearer the front I suppose.....

I always understood that it is up to the Observer in the Pace Car to control the Driver that he balances his speed so that the Grid does NOT stretch out! He also has the facility in that if he is not satisfied he has a "tidy" grid, he can leave the Pace Car lights "ON" and do another Lap! We had a slightly different scenario at Brands this year, where a car had pulled off on the grass in a dangerous position after not completing the Rolling Start lap, and the Pace Car continued on Flashing Yellows for a second lap to allow a Recovery Truck to quickly tow the offending car to a place of safety. I hasten to add that this was on the GP Circuit!

[greenamex2]

Rolling starts seriously advantage high torque cars.

On the one hand this may make things interesting by some big V8 tank gaining a few places by the first corner leaving the 205's to have to get back passed them.

On the other hand it may result in a jolly big accident as someone several seconds a lap slower is now entering a corner surrounded by faster lapping cars.

Would reduce transmission/tyres costs though but not sure about increased safety.

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

Rolling starts seriously advantage high torque cars.

.

dont agree dennis, instead i would say they seriously disavantage poorly geared cars or those with an extremly narrow power band, i used to fare just as well in rolling starts when i had only 165lbft as i do now with 410lbft, although i truth i rarely start a race with the boost up as it tends to just light up the rear end so i do most starts with 350lbft

[graham bahr]

rolling starts also negate the traction advantage of 4WD cars which for most of us is a good thing

[Rod Birley]

I am keeping quiet on this one, but it is true that in DT&RC we have 4wd, rear wheel drive and front wheel drive, all with different starting styles (advantages). In the world touring cars, the front wheel drive cars always bemoan the BMWs charging into the lead from the standing start with their RWD advantage.
At Combe on Sunday, we had five quick cars starting at the rear of the grid after problems in the previous race. A rolling start meant everyone got away safely and no damage was reported.

[MGDavid]

we use rolling starts in FISC and are usually told no overtaking before crossing the start/finish line. Personally I hate them, having done several years of sprints and hillclimbs I find a conventional start very much to my advantage - unless I'm in a FWD car in a mixed type race.

[mig]

I prefer standing starts as i see this as a big part of the race deciding what way to go trying to limit wheel spin etc.With rolling starts you also enter the first corner at a higher speed with cold slicks which is more dangerous.With a rolling start some drivers also fool others behind them by bringing on their brake lights just as the race starts which is also dangerous as it makes the guys behind brake as others are accelerating.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

dont agree dennis, instead i would say they seriously disavantage poorly geared cars or those with an extremly narrow power band, i used to fare just as well in rolling starts when i had only 165lbft as i do now with 410lbft, although i truth i rarely start a race with the boost up as it tends to just light up the rear end so i do most starts with 350lbft

Graham, are you really saying that your acceleration on a rolling start is the same with 165ftlb as 350ftlb?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

Graham, are you really saying that your acceleration on a rolling start is the same with 165ftlb as 350ftlb?

I don't see why not! Depends on revs. 165 lb ft at 6,365 rev/min will be producing the same power as 350 lb ft at 3,000 rev/min. Given equal vehicle weights, acceleration will be the same. As Graham has said, it's power that does the work, not torque!

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I don't see why not! Depends on revs. 165 lb ft at 6,365 rev/min will be producing the same power as 350 lb ft at 3,000 rev/min. Given equal vehicle weights, acceleration will be the same. As Graham has said, it's power that does the work, not torque!

Unless the 165 lb ft engine revs to about 12,000 RPM (I'm working on it!) he is probably going to be changing gear an awful lot more the the 350 lb ft engine. The torque drop off on the 165 lb ft is also going to be far quicker than the 350 lb ft engine so the 'area under the curve' is going to much less (going back to Graham's 'peaky' engines, ie anything other than Al's thundering V8's or decent capacity turbo's, are 'peaky').

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

Graham, are you really saying that your acceleration on a rolling start is the same with 165ftlb as 350ftlb?

the difference isn't as big as you might think once you've factored in longer gearing and much more weight turbo has added 130kg! and that even in 3rd gear at a fair speed on cold slicks its prone to lighting up the rear end rather than moving forward.

im not saying that just after the start i'm not accerating far harder with the turbo, but what i am saying, is a dont pick up anymore places with the turbo than before i had it. although it does have to be said i am usually higher up the grid in the first place

[graham bahr]

huge torque tends to show best at the top end where you can pull silly mph, a lightweight car with relativley low torque can still have a good enough power to weight ratio to live with the big boys until you get to high enough speedsfor areodynamics to become a big factor

[greenamex2]

Interesting.

Not totally convinced but will now make a point of watching some rolling starts to see if there any pattern or technique to the 'winners and losers' on the start. Just in case I get to try one sometime (it's been over a decade since the last one)!

Also interesting on the top end torque thing. My car was 15-20MPH slower down revetts at Snetterton last Sunday. We initially put it down to a serioud engine problem but are beginning to suspect it was down to a combination of -

- The wind being in the wrong direction.
- The engine being a tad down on power/torque (maybe 5%).
- The gearing being 2% higher.

The above seems to have added up to, in my mind, a totally disproportionate drop in top speed, especially as the best lap time was only a second slower.

[graham bahr]

[QUOTE=Denis Bassom]Interesting.

Also interesting on the top end torque thing. My car was 15-20MPH slower down revetts at Snetterton last Sunday. QUOTE]

slower than what? previous visits or other cars?

with the non turbo down revit i never saw more than 125mph, despite a missfire after a few laps so i didn't get faster when i otherwise would have with turbo i still saw 153mph and that is an enormous difference especially as with big power you have to get on the brakes far earlier these days i'm braking where i used to be going up a gear!

[mig]

When Bill used his 1300cc Metro (200bhp and 500kg) at Lydden in the DTRC he got swallowed up on the rolling start if it had been a standing start he would of got to the first corner in the top three.The Metro is front wheel drive has no torque and is hard on the drivetrain we replace shafts and joints a couple of times a season but he still prefers standing starts it also robbed him of the chance of getting close to Rod.Still i think that the little car surprised a few people.

[greenamex2]

How do you get 200bhp out of a Metro, mine had a standard engine and always felt like it was going to blow up!

[Mad Dog]

It is a short stroke 1298cc cosworth BDH unit mated to a Mini gearbox which produces 200bhp at 10500 rpms.Even with the weak gearbox standing starts are the way to go.

[Al Weyman]

Exactly why I like rolling starts, I would need 540bhp to have just the same power to weight ratio in my car as that Metro let alone the better breaking and cornering in a lightweight, how much advantage do you guys want?

[mig]

Thing is Al that Bill qualfied 5th I think but due to the lack of grunt of the line he lost four or five places so it then makes you think about pushing 100% in qualifying as you know you will lose of the line.I think this issue will always favour some cars and cost others so the way the DTRC is done with a 50/50 of rolling starts and standing starts is probably the fairest

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Exactly why I like rolling starts, I would need 540bhp to have just the same power to weight ratio in my car as that Metro let alone the better breaking and cornering in a lightweight, how much advantage do you guys want?

Errr, dumb question!