Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 8 Sep 2005, 15:44 (Ref:1402027)   #1
papismaximus
Rookie
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4
papismaximus should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
To be, or not not to be ... a pole position

What do you reckon, how many pole position Kimi got so far? 8 or 9?
And how about JPM then? 12 or 11? ... I think it's hardly all the same.

Last week, half of the F1 sites gave the pole position to Kimi (for being the fastest of the qualifying) the rest gave it to JPM for obviously starting the race from P1. Now statistically is it a pole for Kimi or not?

these sites for example reckons that it is NOT :

http://www.formulaone.free-online.co...oya/poles.html

http://www.formulaone.free-online.co...nen/poles.html

http://www.f1stats.de/en/drivers/poles.php?d=756

http://www.f1stats.de/en/drivers/poles.php?d=758


but this one for example recognizes it as a pole:

http://www.f1db.com/exec/section/dri...755/type/poles

http://www.f1db.com/exec/section/dri...754/type/poles

let alone that even sportingbet dot dot dot gave the pole for Kimi and trimed me for a fiver with that (or 20 euro actually if i think about the amount I havn't won.. but that's not the point now)
papismaximus is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 15:46 (Ref:1402030)   #2
papismaximus
Rookie
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4
papismaximus should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
would be great to know what is FIA's position on this, and what are the rules concerning this...

the way i see it, it is NOT a pole, and no, not because he didn't start the race from pole but from the 5th row... the reason why I don't think it's a pole is that he got a brand new fresh engine in before the qual and that is againts the recent rules, you can do it, but it will cost you 10 places ... easy as that ... they don't call it a PENALTY for nothing. They penalize you because while others had -in some cases- over 800 km in their engines by then, you get a fresh engine to qualify with and that is unfair! It's not hard to see that since -according to Mario Theissen- the performance of an engine drops by 5-10 HP after doing a GP weekend with it.

What do you think? And what are the rules concerning this if you can quote them?
papismaximus is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 15:55 (Ref:1402036)   #3
Knowlesy
20KPINAL
 
Knowlesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
Knowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
There is no such thing as a pole position in F1 nowadays, they might as well not award them.

Nobody qualifies, merely does the first lap of the race on Saturday.
Knowlesy is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 16:05 (Ref:1402045)   #4
papismaximus
Rookie
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4
papismaximus should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thnx indeed for your philosophical thoughts there is no such thing as the 107% rule if that's what you mean ... however there are still things we call the QUALIFYING, the POLE POSITION (they do award it) and last but not the least DRIVER/TEAM STATISTICS ...
papismaximus is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 17:04 (Ref:1402105)   #5
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The FIA awards the pole position to Montoya.
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 17:10 (Ref:1402110)   #6
Sodemo
Veteran
 
Sodemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
United Kingdom
Solihull, West Mids, UK
Posts: 11,147
Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!Sodemo has a real shot at the podium!
It is an interesting subject, one which I can see reasons for both drivers deserving the "pole" honour.

I think in my heart Kimi deserved the recognition of the pole despite the engine change, it was a mind blowing lap.
Sodemo is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 17:15 (Ref:1402116)   #7
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Particularly given we now know he was virtually on full tanks.
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 17:21 (Ref:1402119)   #8
Dutton
Veteran
 
Dutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
United Nations
Not Much North of Montana
Posts: 6,760
Dutton has a real shot at the podium!Dutton has a real shot at the podium!Dutton has a real shot at the podium!Dutton has a real shot at the podium!
It is one of the problems of the system.

However, the system as it is what they work with and thus Kimi had an engine failure and thus was never in the fight for pole.

Juan got the pole because he did not have an engine failure.

I am not a fan of the situation at all, but it is the the only valid record under the existing system.
Dutton is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 17:38 (Ref:1402129)   #9
papismaximus
Rookie
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 4
papismaximus should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kicking-back
The FIA awards the pole position to Montoya.
Do they? Specify the source please! Cheers!
papismaximus is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 17:50 (Ref:1402137)   #10
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
http://www.formula1.com/insight/driver/9/5.html

12 poles for Juan Pablo
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 17:57 (Ref:1402145)   #11
Knowlesy
20KPINAL
 
Knowlesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
Knowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Ten of which were in his first two years, under proper qualifying.

Ah, I yearn for such qualifying sessions. There's always hope for 2007 I guess, a chink of light in a blackened universe.
Knowlesy is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 18:09 (Ref:1402155)   #12
Louis B.
Veteran
 
Louis B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Canada
home
Posts: 1,324
Louis B. should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The point is indeed interesting for those who bet or are in f1 polls. Insofar as I am concerns, I was happy to note that I got the extra two points for Kimi's "pole" in my f1 poll (which is supposed to rely on the FIA rules on such issues). I, obviously, kept silent as to why I got those when Montoya is the one who started from the first slot.

I don't know the answer to your question but who was at the press conference as pole sitter after the qualifications? Being organised by the FIA, I would gather that whoever was sitting in the center was officially the pole holder (eventhough this might not be a valid indiciation considering that Kimi was on the first step of the podium and at the press conference after the Brazilian GP of 2003 eventhough those belonged to Fisico).
Louis B. is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 18:19 (Ref:1402164)   #13
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,424
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Pole position, noun, the most favorable position at the start of a race.

While Kimi's lap was better and very impressive eleventh is not the most favourable position to start a race. Montoya had the pole position. Raikkonen was quickest in qualifying. Simple.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 18:25 (Ref:1402171)   #14
Louis B.
Veteran
 
Louis B.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Canada
home
Posts: 1,324
Louis B. should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Fine, but statisticly or "bettingly" speaking, what is the rule? The driver who stalls or gets problem taking off on the warming lap such that he has to start at the back of the grid does not lose his "pole position" in the official stats. There must be some rationale behind the rule.
Louis B. is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 19:00 (Ref:1402219)   #15
Kicking-back
Registered User
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 16,661
Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
10 Tenths F1 results prediction competition, which some of you may be familiar with, gave Montoya pole.


Louis - it's the person who is on pole on the official published starting grid that counts.
Kicking-back is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 19:07 (Ref:1402226)   #16
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,424
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis B.
Fine, but statisticly or "bettingly" speaking, what is the rule? The driver who stalls or gets problem taking off on the warming lap such that he has to start at the back of the grid does not lose his "pole position" in the official stats. There must be some rationale behind the rule.
There is a similar anomaly with Schumacher's starts. Did he start the French GP in '96?

It is who was given the pole position, even if they then throw it away before the start they still had the first option at pole position.

In terms of betting the onus is on the bookmaker (or the punter) to carefully define such definitions not the FIA, I feel.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 19:32 (Ref:1402247)   #17
BootsOntheSide
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
England
Eastbourne, England
Posts: 13,000
BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
France 1996 happened after qualifying was finished - after the cars had formed up on the dummy grid (which, as you'll note from the Indy situation, is officially the start of the race), so it's completely different to this situation, in which the penalty was applied before qualifying, and applied to the qualifying result.
BootsOntheSide is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Sep 2005, 14:20 (Ref:1402951)   #18
N I Tram
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,550
N I Tram should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
France 1996 was hilarious, because that pole lap was done with an almost-certainly-illegal car. Irvine's lap was excluded due to his car failing the tests, but by the time they coudl test Michael's car, the team had modified it back to legality. They spent 48 hours thinking they'd pulled a fast one, and then bang! Poetic justice.
N I Tram is offline  
__________________
"Stacy's mom has got it going on, she's all I want, and I've waited so long. Stacy can't you see, you're just not the girl for me, I know it might be wrong but I'm in love with Stacy's mom"
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
And pole position goes to . . . f1atic Formula One 22 6 Mar 2004 11:30
Should JV take pole position in Japan? TeddyG Formula One 37 9 Oct 2003 09:00
Helio on Pole Position racer69 IRL Indycar Series 6 14 May 2003 01:29
Pole Position Asp Trackside 6 15 Apr 2003 00:49
Sandown 500 Pole Position Taken By.... RaceTime Australasian Touring Cars. 39 9 Sep 2002 13:12


All times are GMT. The time now is 22:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.