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Old 23 May 2008, 10:12 (Ref:2209670)   #1
werner
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werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
WTCC: Honda want a weight reduction in WTCC

http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=2348

When I saw the title, my first thought was that Honda learned quikly how to be succesful in WTCC. When taking a closer look, it was ofcourse the N-Tech-teamboss Sipz, who has enough experience to know how it works.

I read that Chevy has a 30kg weightbreak due to 'aearodynamic disadvantages'. I always thought that they were pretty good aerodynamicly. Their pretty good results at Monza, despite their engine not being the strongest prooved that to me. So I'm interested in how those cars are supposed to have a disadvantage.
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Old 23 May 2008, 11:31 (Ref:2209725)   #2
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Bramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
That also interested me about that reaction, what disadvantage do they mean? They've got the smallest frontal surface, they've got a saloon, they're the narrowest, I'd say aerodynamically they're the least disadvantaged...

James Thompsons quote annoys me a bit though:
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"I don't understand why we don't start on the same level as the others. Then if we are too quick they can look at it again."
Dude, thats the exact problem that the WTCC has. Adjusting too quickly and then turning back decisions because they're too extreme. In my opinion they should wait for at least 3 races. Valencia, Pau and Brno are 3 very different circuits and should give quite a honest view on how the cars are compared to eachother. Judge after Brno, not before.

Last edited by Bramzel; 23 May 2008 at 11:33.
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Old 23 May 2008, 12:36 (Ref:2209763)   #3
werner
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werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It's hard to compare the Honda to other cars anyway, since there is only one car. When it wins, is is due to the undisputed talent of Thompson, or due to a fast car, and when it fails, does it mean James had an of-day, or is the car to heavy?
Well, I've put my ideas on the topic of weights here often enough...
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Old 23 May 2008, 20:12 (Ref:2210026)   #4
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I right with you guys with the ????? about what on earth would be the aero disadvantage of the Chevy. Struck me to be quite odd as well.

In fact the entire concept of "we need a weight break because our car aero sucks" I feel is silly. Don't pick a model that sucks! Bring a proper car instead. It's beneficial also on the road if you car actually is not just a "cool" fashion statement but actually sits well on the road and is low on fuel usage.
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Old 24 May 2008, 08:36 (Ref:2210223)   #5
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Jimmy Magnusson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridJimmy Magnusson should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Obviously writing a good set of rules for everyone was too difficult for the FIA... And isn't it a bit premature to be wingeing about disadvantages, they've done one race and it didn't even have a proper qualifying...
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Old 24 May 2008, 11:32 (Ref:2210327)   #6
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And isn't it a bit premature to be wingeing about disadvantages, they've done one race
The opposite is even more true, they just entered and are already slammed from the get go with an extra weight penalty compaired to other cars. Why?
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Old 24 May 2008, 20:15 (Ref:2210731)   #7
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Are N.Tech really just asking for a weight break because everyone else has got one. They havent given any reason, just that they want one.

Well, i'm going to enter my old, road going Fiat Punto into the series. Since it is just a road car, rather than building it into a race car, i'll just enter it as it is and win cos' it'll weigh 1 gram.

Much easier than developing a race car.
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Old 24 May 2008, 20:32 (Ref:2210752)   #8
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Hazard should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridHazard should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridHazard should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Considering how competitive the championship is - where Thommo was running for a first event was pretty respectable.

Because they keep handing out weight breaks though, it's obvious everyone's going to start whining for one.

What would happen if you gave one kid in a classroom a chocolate bar and not the others?
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Old 24 May 2008, 20:45 (Ref:2210766)   #9
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Originally Posted by stedevil
In fact the entire concept of "we need a weight break because our car aero sucks" I feel is silly. Don't pick a model that sucks! Bring a proper car instead. It's beneficial also on the road if you car actually is not just a "cool" fashion statement but actually sits well on the road and is low on fuel usage.
Yes, correct.

It is a concept beyond the ruling body though, surprisingly. Thus things like this happen.

Absurd stuff, but there you go.
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Old 25 May 2008, 13:36 (Ref:2211235)   #10
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Dead-Eye should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDead-Eye should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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In fact the entire concept of "we need a weight break because our car aero sucks" I feel is silly. Don't pick a model that sucks! Bring a proper car instead.
In that case most companies would weigh the cost of developing a car good for racing against the cost of not competing at all and, in most cases, decide to stay away entirely.
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Old 25 May 2008, 14:26 (Ref:2211305)   #11
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In that case most companies would weigh the cost of developing a car good for racing against the cost of not competing at all and, in most cases, decide to stay away entirely.
And conversly, we have manufacturers that don't bother to compete with their good aero cars because crappy aero cars will in any case get weightbreaks or other advantages. VW-group eg have several better options to put on the grid then the hatchback Seat, there is just no motivation to do so.

Additionally, a fuel efficient stable car is good on the track as well as on the road. So it's not like they would end up with an unsellable car.
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Old 31 May 2008, 07:57 (Ref:2215752)   #12
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Originally Posted by Hazard
Considering how competitive the championship is - where Thommo was running for a first event was pretty respectable.

Because they keep handing out weight breaks though, it's obvious everyone's going to start whining for one.

What would happen if you gave one kid in a classroom a chocolate bar and not the others?
That must explain the show "You Are What You Eat" I sometimes watch on BBC America...
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Old 5 Jun 2008, 10:14 (Ref:2220334)   #13
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It's crazy that no car is allowed to be 'faster' than any other. If it IS faster, they have done a better job than the other teams, simple. Why is that discouraged?
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Old 6 Jun 2008, 16:47 (Ref:2221409)   #14
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BMW in a WTCC where no weight penalties are awarded for being RWD or for winning would end up being a BMW one make series....


Personally I wouldn't mind that but I fear it would be less appealing to others...

It is very hard to get the balance right...
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Old 6 Jun 2008, 21:55 (Ref:2221585)   #15
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werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
BMW, or any RWD-manufacturer, should have a weightpenalty. Not because they should be punisched for having a better system, but because a RWD-system is heavier than a FWD-system. They need an axle through the car, and maybe some more stuff. It's not fair if they still end up with the same weight as the other cars due to a minimumweight. With that in mind, I would appreciate allowing 4WD-cars, but with even more weight.
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Old 7 Jun 2008, 11:54 (Ref:2221857)   #16
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Originally Posted by BMW Süchtige
BMW in a WTCC where no weight penalties are awarded for being RWD or for winning would end up being a BMW one make series....
I'm not completely confident about that. RWD might have an advantage on dry good tarmac, but sprinkle a little water on the surface or have a naturally slippery track (eg Curitiba) and the advantage swings the other way.

To this, have nothing but rolling starts, and the RWD & FWD difference isn't that big.

What is a big advantage to BMW however, is that they have produced enough cars of a special racing model (which has eg near flat underbodies etc.) to allow to enter these as TC cars instead of prototypes. Of course, it also helps that they don't try to race with stupid hatchbacks etc, but a properly streamlined car.
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Old 8 Jun 2008, 10:19 (Ref:2222399)   #17
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Originally Posted by safc_fan89
It's crazy that no car is allowed to be 'faster' than any other. If it IS faster, they have done a better job than the other teams, simple. Why is that discouraged?
I have picked yours out not because your a fellow SAFC fan like yours truly who is into his WTCC (because I didn't notice your name till I saw it above on the quote), but because that seems to sum up for me the the core of this issue that has blighted the WTCC certainly since last year atleast; probably longer.

An apparent inability to accept the concept that a team could ever develop a car that is faster and more competitive than the others and that it is something of duty as a competing team to try to develop a car that is as fast and as competitive again.

I especially find the N.Technology situation annoying because I don't know about the cars pace but Thommo has certainly finished both races in Valencia and Pau better than some factory drivers (mostly BMW). I don't see the need to reduce the weight of the Accord even further.
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Old 8 Jun 2008, 11:34 (Ref:2222434)   #18
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I don't see the need to reduce the weight of the Accord even further.
???

The accord was just allowed to be as light (not lighter) as it's competitors that all have had years of development time to improve. It's a pretty darn unfair situation to come in with basicly a new car/brand and be penalized from the get go with having higher weight on top of the lack of experience. Compair eg with Chevy, they still have a few allowances on eg the engine as a "new guy benefit" even though they have been in WTCC for years already.

It would be a very different thing if the WTCC wasn't already a series where everybody and their grandmom already got specific advantages left and right. But that is not the case unfortunately.

Last edited by stedevil; 8 Jun 2008 at 11:37.
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Old 8 Jun 2008, 11:54 (Ref:2222443)   #19
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Even if there was one car that was better than the rest, it would still be a good series.

If there's one car better than the rest in BTCC/STCC, thats 2-3 cars that are dominating, in F1 it would be two cars.

In WTCC, BMW and SEAT each have 5 cars, if either one of those dominated, there would still be an interesting battle for the title.

I suppose if Honda dominate that would be pretty boring...
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Old 9 Jun 2008, 14:02 (Ref:2223764)   #20
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duke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridduke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Surely it would be LADA that need the weight break more
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Old 9 Jun 2008, 14:23 (Ref:2223782)   #21
stedevil
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Surely it would be LADA that need the weight break more
You actually have a point there. With the recent -15kg for BMW I assume all independents except the 1 Seat and the Ladas lost ground. Or was the weight break only for the factory cars?
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