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Old 2 Jan 2007, 23:25 (Ref:1804353)   #1
Fireball
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Fireball should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Driver Rankings

How do you rate the current crop of V8 drivers?

A Grade = A driver who can take a team by the scruff & win a championship.

My View, 06 main drivers only, in no particular order

A Grade
Lowndes
Tander
Skaife (still)
S Richards
Murphy
Bright
Courtney (this year 07, not last)

B+
T & R Kelly (even though R won the championship)
Ingall
Winterbottom

B Grade
Johnson
Davidson
J Richards
Bowe
Wincup
Rat
Canto
McConville
Wilson
Bargs
Dumbrell
Morris

B -
Luff
Holdsworth (potential)
Owen
A & B Jones
Gurr
Coulthard

C Grade
J Perkins (bit unfair will improve, good talent)
S Price ( same as above, but a bit better)
Marshall
Ricciardello (very good in sports sedans)

Z Grade
Fernandez
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Old 2 Jan 2007, 23:37 (Ref:1804358)   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireball
How do you rate the current crop of V8 drivers?

A Grade = A driver who can take a team by the scruff & win a championship.

My View, 06 main drivers only, in no particular order

A Grade
Tander
S Richards
Murphy
Bright
Courtney (this year 07, not last)
Except they never have........ won a championship in V8Supercar...
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Old 2 Jan 2007, 23:40 (Ref:1804364)   #3
Henry
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Bit of a hole in the logic there, perhaps? And aren't some drivers naturally more rank than others?
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Old 2 Jan 2007, 23:40 (Ref:1804365)   #4
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Yes True, but can with right gear...dont you agree?
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Old 2 Jan 2007, 23:42 (Ref:1804366)   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireball
Yes True, but can with right gear...dont you agree?
No.
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Old 2 Jan 2007, 23:50 (Ref:1804372)   #6
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YES
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Old 2 Jan 2007, 23:59 (Ref:1804378)   #7
Fireball
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So, Tander can never win hey Henry...should be 07 champ as we speak.
I am a ford man so not biased...
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 00:16 (Ref:1804380)   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRMagic
Except they never have........ won a championship in V8Supercar...
The key words here are "can take a team... an win a championship"

Not "Have taken there team to a championship"

If your going to lash some try not to leave yourself open for being lashed back.
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 00:27 (Ref:1804385)   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireball
So, Tander can never win hey Henry...should be 07 champ as we speak.
I am a ford man so not biased...
It depends... has VESA had their annual meeting to determine the 2007 champion yet?
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 00:37 (Ref:1804389)   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v8smoker
The key words here are "can take a team... an win a championship"

Not "Have taken there team to a championship"

If your going to lash some try not to leave yourself open for being lashed back.
You are speculating on the basis of possibility not past history. Which is all well and good, but the detail says these drivers can pick up a car and team and win a championship. We dont technically know that until they have won a championship, so it remains speculation only....

By my reckoning there are some aces in that list yet to win a series, but you have to wonder why they havent achieved it so far... it cannot all be car related... I mean one of them was lead driver at HRT in a championship that was his to lose (which he did) to a 'speedbump'
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 02:09 (Ref:1804411)   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireball
How do you rate the current crop of V8 drivers?

A Grade = A driver who can take a team by the scruff & win a championship.

My View, 06 main drivers only, in no particular order

A Grade
Lowndes
Tander
Skaife (still)
S Richards
Murphy
Bright
Courtney (this year 07, not last)

B+
T & R Kelly (even though R won the championship)
Ingall
Winterbottom

B Grade
Johnson
Davidson
J Richards
Bowe
Wincup
Rat
Canto
McConville
Wilson
Bargs
Dumbrell
Morris

B -
Luff
Holdsworth (potential)
Owen
A & B Jones
Gurr
Coulthard

C Grade
J Perkins (bit unfair will improve, good talent)
S Price ( same as above, but a bit better)
Marshall
Ricciardello (very good in sports sedans)

Z Grade
Fernandez
How you can grade people on their results of 06' is unfair. I bet you only gave Jose a Z grade cos you based it on his results.

This is bull**** and you should look beyond the results mate.
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 02:17 (Ref:1804413)   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernandez_Angel
This is bull**** and you should look beyond the results mate.
And base it on what?
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 02:32 (Ref:1804415)   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry
And base it on what?
personality!
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 02:41 (Ref:1804419)   #14
Henry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernandez_Angel
personality!
Of course!

But Fireball clearly defined his criteria in his original post:
Quote:
A Grade = A driver who can take a team by the scruff & win a championship.
, which sorta negates the concept of using personality as the benchmark.

Mind you, I think he's probably a little harsh on Jose, especially given that I don't agree much on some of his "a Grade" picks either, given his qualification of what makes an A Grade driver....

And anyway, taking a team by the scruff hasn't garnered too many results by anybody lately... I don't think it's exactly how Rick came about the #1 anyway...
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 02:42 (Ref:1804420)   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry
And base it on what?
Maybe base it on ego and Jose would be at the top!
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 02:44 (Ref:1804423)   #16
Henry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel
Maybe base it on ego and Jose would be at the top!
There's a few of the bigger names he'd be hard-pressed to beat on that one too, I'd reckon...
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 02:56 (Ref:1804427)   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel
Maybe base it on ego and Jose would be at the top!
Thats all yous think about aye? Egos, results and other things like that.

One question for yous? Have you actually met Jose? I think hes the only driver that DOESNT have and ego.

Enuf sed. I rest my case.
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 03:10 (Ref:1804433)   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernandez_Angel
Thats all yous think about aye? Egos, results and other things like that.

One question for yous? Have you actually met Jose? I think hes the only driver that DOESNT have and ego.

Enuf sed. I rest my case.
Well, I would've thought that results were among some of the key objectives of the exercise. And unfortunately, a certain amount of ego seems to be helpful in propelling an individual onward in pursuit of said results. But fear not, because in the words of those great sages, the Skyhooks, EGO IS NOT A DIRTY WORD.

And unfortunately, in the words of Green Day, among numerous others, Nice Guys Finish Last.
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 03:22 (Ref:1804438)   #19
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Interesting argument and will never truly be decided because of various factors:

1. Difference in equipment - the grid will never be 100% equal
2. Age - some drivers will be past their peak (Bowe, B Jones, Ingall?, Morris etc) and some will be approaching their potential (Price, Perkins, Frosty etc) so they are at different stages of their career.
3. The format - with CPS, the team have a bearing on driver fortunes. A HSV team is better drilled and equipped than a PCR team for e.g.

However, RIGHT NOW, we can attempt to rate them (at this stage of their career) on certain criteria. My view is that the absolute best drivers are those that, no matter what piece of crap they are forced to drive, will still gravitate to somewhere near the front. They need to be assessed on qualifying, racecraft, relaibility, mistakes made, temperament etc etc. I'll give it out of 100.

Lowndes - 95+ natural star, quick in anything.
Tander - 85+ fast but temperamental, needs good car, racecraft ordinary
Skaife - 95+ star in all conditions, proven in everything, master setup man
S Richards - 80+ bit like Tander, poor racecraft
Murphy - 85+ fast, temperamental, definitely needs good car.
Bright - 90+ can drag a bad car to the front but makes more mistakes than a Lowndes or Skaife. Watch him take Britek cars to the Top 10 this year.
Courtney - 90 looks to be good but has not made the same impression as Ambrose when he started and has probably had better cars than MA began with.
T Kelly - 85+ has'nt had to deal with crap cars yet. Smoothness the concern with Todd.
R Kelly - 80 has to be admired for holding things together but in the crunch, is he a good racer? Also not tested in slow cars.
Ingall - 90 Was one of the best, may be on the wane but guaranteed to get somehwere near the pointy end
Winterbottom - 90+ showed potential in bad cars, showing what he can do in fast ones. Expect to keep improving.
Johnson - 85+ Much better than people give him credit for, is competitve in slowish cars. His natural weight penalty is probably his biggest downfall and can make a few mistakes.
Davison - 80+ Showing potential slowly. Still a concern about touring car racecraft and would like to see in a top car.
J Richards - 80+ appears to be very fast and skillful but also makes more mistakes than he should
Bowe - 80+ On the wane but I suspect he would still be aregular Top 10 in a HRT or FPR car.
Whincup - 90+ same as Winterbottom except that he has slightly more aggression which can either help or hurt depending on circumstances. Could be a major star though.
Rat - 80 Like John Bowe
Canto - 75+ Good but not great driver who would get a good result in a good car every now and again. Good comparison would be a Besnard.
McConville - 70+ Everyone loves cam but he is not in the class of a Skaife/Lowndes and never will be. Can get the odd good result but everything has to go his way.
Wilson - 80 fast, would get results in a good car but would still make too many mistakes.
Bargs - 85+ Proven winner in cars that are at least competitive. A bit like Murf but a better temperament balanced out by more errors.
Dumbrell - 70 Too many mistakes, poor racecraft, not enough results in competitve car.
Morris - 60 Never really good enough to be in the field on merit.
Luff - 65 Does not have the raw speed (compare his Bathurst times to Ambrose) to be competitve no matter what he drives.
Holdsworth - 80+ A lot better than his results show, hard to rate but I would like to see him in something fast. Could be higher
Owen - 85+ Has dragged an ordinary car to places where it shouldnt be. I'm very surprised that Larry has'nt grabbed this guy. I see wins in a competitive car.
A Jones - 65 Does not appear to have the speed necessary, racecraft is dodgy too.
B Jones - 75+ Not what he was (and he was good, although no Skaife/Lowndes).
Gurr - 70+ Shown potential in patches. gets points for upsetting the Dude by beating him (hehe).
Coulthard - 75+ another who is OK in most aspects but can he drag a bad car up? No.
J Perkins - 80+ with a bullet. Much as his old man annoys me, this kid can really go places. If nothing else, it was the Bathurst HPDC that convinced me he has it.
S Price - 80+ has potential but I think Jack will go ahead of him shortly. can see him being a contender though
Marshall - 80 Disappointing, thought he'd be better.
Ricciardello - 65 same as Luffy, no good on the big stage.
Fernandez - 60 ditto

Are there any Lowndes/Skaifes in the above lot?

maybe Frosty, Whincup, Jack Perkins for a longshot but I will give you another name - Andrew Thompson - will be a superstar.
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 03:36 (Ref:1804442)   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernandez_Angel
Thats all yous think about aye? Egos, results and other things like that.

One question for yous? Have you actually met Jose? I think hes the only driver that DOESNT have and ego.

Enuf sed. I rest my case.
Got no ego hey!!!

Then why did he waste a tonne of money to race in the main game? Cause he either thinks hes good enough or he can.

To me thats ego. And yes I have met him, A very nice bloke and down to earth but there is definately ego there. As far as the Z grading it is a bit harsh, maybe Y or X.
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 04:43 (Ref:1804459)   #21
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Yes a bit harsh on "No Way Jose A" but is only a C - to D Grade driver.
Deeks 6 is about spot on in my opinion.
Just dont think that Marshall or Perkins Jnr are 80 maybe 70-75
With Luff at 75.....

Agree, Thompson will be a worth while investment..only 19? I think
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 05:03 (Ref:1804468)   #22
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v8smoker should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
deeks CL not so quick in fpr car of old or in his 3000 attempt, so to say he is quick in anything, is possibly only your interpretation of quick
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 05:59 (Ref:1804483)   #23
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barney551 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Deeks ... how wrong you are with your comparison of Canto and Besnard.

You should talk to some of the teams he has been with especially the Engineers.

He has won 2 development series and performed admirably with equipment well below that of the more fancied teams and given the oportunity in a well engineered car, where money is no object, I think you would see what he is really capable of.
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 06:10 (Ref:1804488)   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barney551
Deeks ... how wrong you are with your comparison of Canto and Besnard.

You should talk to some of the teams he has been with especially the Engineers.

He has won 2 development series and performed admirably with equipment well below that of the more fancied teams and given the oportunity in a well engineered car, where money is no object, I think you would see what he is really capable of.
Unfortunately Mr Canto will not achieve such heights where he currently hangs his helmet
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 06:14 (Ref:1804490)   #25
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You never know what the future may have in store for GRM GTR .... or where Deano will end up down the track.
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