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Old 4 Jun 2012, 10:01 (Ref:3084976)   #16
deggis
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Originally Posted by littleman View Post
with diesel so I guess the much maligned regs have always been pretty well constructed.
Barely one day has gone since the test apparently already been forgotten that this is only the second year of post-2011 engine regulations and first season with the major modifications made to them during the winter.


Last edited by deggis; 4 Jun 2012 at 10:10.
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 11:49 (Ref:3085013)   #17
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Spyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
@ deggis - You are of course, 100% correct. The "see I told you so" reaction from the pro diesel crowd however, whilst expected is unreasonable.
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 12:18 (Ref:3085027)   #18
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I'm against splitting classes by anything other than tech regs. I wouldn't mind a privateer trophy within P1, with a separate podium ceremony, but still in the same class so that a private car that has a really good day can still be eligible for the overall P1 win.
I think this has got to be right. No problem with a privateer trophy (like the Jim Clark Cup in F1 in the '80s), but please, no formal sub-division of the class. Frankly, I'm against GTE Pro and Am; we should have LMP1, LMP2 and GTE. That's it.
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 12:22 (Ref:3085030)   #19
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I do agree with the P2 privateer P1 factory sentiment, perhaps the grid in this situation could be boosted by the FIA/ACO pushing for more satellite teams in P1 running factory cars? For example, Rebellion running the TS030 or even Oreca taking a TS030 of their own. Not sure how viable that is considering the costs involved with a factory P1 machine... Would be nice though, the 2011 Rebellion livery on the Toyota!
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 12:24 (Ref:3085034)   #20
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I do wonder how manufacturers would react if there were a very modest homologation requirement - say, 10 or 15 cars - would they think it was worthwhile to farm out cars to customers, or would they just leave prototype racing and go somewhere else?
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 12:31 (Ref:3085038)   #21
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I don't understand why this issue has come about - maybe years of little manufacturer involvement in the 2000s has meant we've forgotten what it's like?

The fact of the matter is, motor racing is expensive these days, especially at the top levels like in LMP racing. When manufacturers come along they'll be competing for victories - they've put the money in, and money talks. They'll only come along if their money can talk, and unless you have manufacturers, there isn't any money in the sport full stop.

It's been like this for decades now but I don't see an extinction of privateer teams. Privateers will always come to Le Mans whether they have a chance of winning or not, and for many teams finishing will always be the victory. And if LMP1 is really that bad...there's always LMP2.

In the 1980s, we had manufacturers who had the money to build race-winning cars and the privateers and customers who had a shot of podium. There could only be two class winners. Yet ask anyone who was alive then, and they will tell you that along with the 1950s that was truely a golden era of sportscar racing.

Manufacturers come and go but pretty much no matter what the ACO does, privateers, garagists, customers and anoraks will always be here.
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 12:47 (Ref:3085046)   #22
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I'm afraid the misty eyed dreams of a plucky Brit building a Le Mans winning car in his chicken shed have gone forever!

The days of Alain de Cadenet, Jean Rondeau etc, etc are sadly long gone.
I don't even necessarily want that - I'd be okay with Joests, Bruns, Fitzpatricks and Kremers...

Given the same equipment, privateers in the 80s were able give factories a run for their money - and from time to time even beat them, like Joest winning LM or Brun the WSC.
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 12:59 (Ref:3085053)   #23
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It was only a test session. Testing doesn't mean a lot. Pescarolo 03 was not even quicker than the fastest LMP2 cars. So maybe Pescarolo 03 should be in LMP2 with their car!! (sarcasm).

We don't know yet if Audi or Toyota will go much than the other at qualify and in the race.

Let's wait 1,5 week and then we'll know.
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 13:02 (Ref:3085055)   #24
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Can I just add that there should absolutely 100% be a privateer LMP1 class in the Predictions Competition. I'm glad about that
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 19:44 (Ref:3085216)   #25
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Originally Posted by deggis View Post
Barely one day has gone since the test apparently already been forgotten that this is only the second year of post-2011 engine regulations and first season with the major modifications made to them during the winter.

That. Plus TS030 may actually have superior aero and/or importantly the Hybrid system!

That being said, the competitive level of private petrol cars seems to have deteriorated somewhat (compared to the diesels) after the engine rules moved to 3.4L. Apart from the Toyota engines, there doesn't seem to be single new engine developed for 3.4 P1 rather than 3.4 P2, spare the still-born AMR-One engine. And those uprated 3.4 ex-P2 engines seem to barely outperform those new production-block P2 engines. Look at the Oak P1 and P2 cars, you'll see what I mean.

Unfortunately it's not likely anyone will bring a new engine for privateers until 2014.

PS: as for the 'LMP1 Privateer class' isn't that's what LMP2 is for?
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Old 4 Jun 2012, 20:38 (Ref:3085243)   #26
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Without the privateer petrols and satellite teams you would currently have a six car LMP1 field at Le Mans, three at tops in WEC. And that would look quite damn pathetic, especially in the eyes on non-hardcore fans who turn TV on just once a year. They don't care about LMP2, no matter how many entries and cloned Oreca Nissans you might have... the P1 petrols might not have a chance but (in theory) it is the same class

'Nuff said.
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Old 5 Jun 2012, 04:29 (Ref:3085416)   #27
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I'll throw this out there and see what sticks...

Would requiring factory teams to sell cars to privateers help the situation or hurt?

Arguably the best era of Group C was the Porsche 956/962 years, where a team could buy one and be somewhat competitive out of the box.

I also wonder how this can work as a business model in LMP1 while it seems to be the norm in GT.

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Old 5 Jun 2012, 04:55 (Ref:3085418)   #28
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That's the downside of the alternative technologies at this stage of racing. I think that has escalated the costs more than anything else, really. I also think the restrictive engine rules/constant rules changes have hurt privateers. They simply don't have the funds to buy new engines and the small suppliers such as Judd don't have the resources to keep building new engines to adapt to new regulations. The modified 3.4 V8's have been around forever and are definitely obsolete. Nissan has the best LMP2 engine and I think a lot of it is due to the fact that they didn't come in to the sport until the new cost-cap LMP2 rules/regs were implemented.

To me, loyalty/longevity in the sport has not resulted in anything too special for the privateers. Yes, they should be somewhat at a disadvantage. Toyota are proving that equivalency regulations are fair for gasoline/diesel. It's just that in today's LMP1 racing, the alternative technologies/level of sophistication required to run at the front are far too costly for most teams to afford. You just can't buy a TS030 or R18 and run it competitively like Joest or the Kremer brothers could buy a 962 and fight with the works teams. Whereas the Group C regulations were stable, current regulations are anything but.
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Old 5 Jun 2012, 07:22 (Ref:3085443)   #29
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I do agree with the P2 privateer P1 factory sentiment, perhaps the grid in this situation could be boosted by the FIA/ACO pushing for more satellite teams in P1 running factory cars? For example, Rebellion running the TS030 or even Oreca taking a TS030 of their own. Not sure how viable that is considering the costs involved with a factory P1 machine... Would be nice though, the 2011 Rebellion livery on the Toyota!
Yeah, same here!

I would imagine having a factory team and a privateer running 6 TS030s at Le Mans.

Unless the development of the LMP1 car is cheaper, we won't see the privateers driving it...
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Old 5 Jun 2012, 08:24 (Ref:3085457)   #30
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If the ACO would leave the regulations alone for a longer period then perhaps proir year factory cars could find there way into privateer hands whose development could perhaps give the newer fcatory cars a run for their money, it happened with Pesca and the old pug and Kolles with the r15, Perhaps the ACO could insist that for preferential treatment in allowing the factory teams places on the invite list the proir year cars are sold/rented to satelite teams like they do in motor GP
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