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Old 15 Jan 2017, 13:06 (Ref:3702714)   #1
Mike Bell
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Minimum age for Historic race cars?

From what I've seen and heard, in the USA a race car becomes 'historic' almost as soon as it isn't 'current'.

Ignoring jokes about new build Cobras, 'E' Types, etc., we've already seen 90s 'Supertourers' being raced competitively again, and track displays of late GT cars. This season Peter Auto has two events where GT1 cars (1994 to 2011) can be exercised. (https://peterauto.peter.fr/en/platea...id/224/nom/GT1)

Could this be a precursor to a race series for these cars, and if so, a good move? Or are they too young......
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Old 15 Jan 2017, 16:00 (Ref:3702731)   #2
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Bit of a strange format from PA....several sessions none of which are timed? As you say must be a toe in the water to see if there are enough out there who want to come and play.
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Old 15 Jan 2017, 18:10 (Ref:3702748)   #3
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For a moment there I was thinking someone was starting to suggest that the drivers should only be in period

N.
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Old 15 Jan 2017, 18:35 (Ref:3702752)   #4
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Bit of a strange format from PA....several sessions none of which are timed? As you say must be a toe in the water to see if there are enough out there who want to come and play.
Agreed. They often do like that. Do you remember when CER was on Saturday before modern racing Le Mans series style? They are testing Formula Vee too and pre war and …
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Old 15 Jan 2017, 18:56 (Ref:3702756)   #5
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For a moment there I was thinking someone was starting to suggest that the drivers should only be in period

N.
Yes, I realised that the title could be interpreted that way a little too late!

And, yes.........
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Old 17 Jan 2017, 14:45 (Ref:3703160)   #6
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I was surprised to see races for 90s road cars at events like the Silverstone classic but then realised that they are getting on for 25 years old.
When we started historic racing in the 80s we ended up replacing the prewar Riley with a Formula Junior which would have been about 25 years old.
So I can understand the inclusion of these modern cars.
But there is a difference in how little cars have evolved between the 90s & current days compared to the 60s and 80s, so on that basis I'm not interested in these recent cars myself.
I'm also not entirely convinced that situations like the original team running one of their older cars is actually historic racing but that is probably another issue.
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Old 17 Jan 2017, 16:07 (Ref:3703167)   #7
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I was surprised to see races for 90s road cars at events like the Silverstone classic but then realised that they are getting on for 25 years old.
When we started historic racing in the 80s we ended up replacing the prewar Riley with a Formula Junior which would have been about 25 years old.
So I can understand the inclusion of these modern cars.
But there is a difference in how little cars have evolved between the 90s & current days compared to the 60s and 80s, so on that basis I'm not interested in these recent cars myself.
I'm also not entirely convinced that situations like the original team running one of their older cars is actually historic racing but that is probably another issue.
You've turned into an old fart trapped in your specific generational slot…it happens too us all. Cars up to about 1985 is my cut off point...
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Old 17 Jan 2017, 17:30 (Ref:3703204)   #8
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Old 17 Jan 2017, 19:51 (Ref:3703234)   #9
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In motorsport terms tomorrows car is historic once it has the dust sheets pulled off.
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Old 17 Jan 2017, 21:45 (Ref:3703246)   #10
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You've turned into an old fart trapped in your specific generational slot…it happens too us all. Cars up to about 1985 is my cut off point...
Very true - I even thought these policemen are very young when they stopped me for a 'chat' the other day!

I think mid to late 80s is a good cut off but I did work on F3000 cars at the time so they are 'current' to me!

It does seem strange when I see historic F1 cars etc. that we were the historic support race for when they were new.
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Old 18 Jan 2017, 06:24 (Ref:3703294)   #11
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In motorsport terms tomorrows car is historic once it has the dust sheets pulled off.
Yes, but as mentioned in the initial post, only (AFAIK) in the USA would a 'modern' race car be welcomed in 'historic' racing. The cost of running LMP, GT and Formula stuff must be prohibitive. Even the later GpC cars seem to need an awful amount of man power to get on track, so are there enough owners or potential owners of modern stuff with deep enough pockets? And why would they want to race a car just a few years old, when they are likely wealthy enough to run the latest thing in a current series?
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Old 18 Jan 2017, 07:06 (Ref:3703297)   #12
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Cars up to about 1985 is my cut off point...[/QUOTE]
1979 if you allow me to join. Modern injection systems are real nuisance to historic racing, I'd love to find series forbidding them, something like carbs only with tolerance for K Jetronic.
Mike, I love your last question!
Do you ever feel like a fireman setting fire? …
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Old 19 Jan 2017, 08:57 (Ref:3703523)   #13
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Old 19 Jan 2017, 10:37 (Ref:3703544)   #14
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31.12.1990 is the official FIA cut-off date for historic racing cars.

After that, you have to take one thing into account, electronics went everywhere and therefore it becomes very hard to control what an individual can do with those "funny boxes" unless you have properly trained scrutineers or let's say, engineers...
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Old 19 Jan 2017, 12:30 (Ref:3703568)   #15
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31.12.1990 is the official FIA cut-off date for historic racing cars.
I presume you mean 'cut-off date' that is required for a series or championship to be sanctioned by the FIA? I guess that means the HSCC '90s Supertourers series in the UK is not sanctioned by them or the cars are not classed as historic?
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Old 30 Jan 2017, 10:37 (Ref:3707746)   #16
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At the very least, mind it does promote the question how many of today's historic cars are historic
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Old 31 Jan 2017, 12:46 (Ref:3708085)   #17
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I presume you mean 'cut-off date' that is required for a series or championship to be sanctioned by the FIA? I guess that means the HSCC '90s Supertourers series in the UK is not sanctioned by them or the cars are not classed as historic?
Yes that is it, the FIA would not recognise a Series or Championship post 1990.

Taking on other comments, I do think it is reasonable as you enter the true world of electronics from that point. Also take into account the complexity of some of the cars from 1985, you would need real and true understanding of rules as well as engineering to try and rule such cars correctly. Group C is a good example in my opinion, all now running on Motec or modern equivalent of their period electronics, all sort of mappings and a lot of performace enhancement from that.

Super tourers and other examples as such are truly great cars but take ITC or DTM cars of 1993-1996, who could understand these cars correctly as in period they had more electronics than what was allowed in F1 ?

On recent GT & LMP cars coming out, first things these guys do is take out the restrictors or for the BOSS series, they replace a 3.5 with a 5.0L Judd, practical and more economic but above all much more powerfull...
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Old 12 Apr 2017, 16:13 (Ref:3725885)   #18
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Masters launches new Le Mans Legends Series

Time to resurrect this thread- News received today ......

http://www.mastershistoricracing.com...egends-series/
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Old 12 Apr 2017, 18:17 (Ref:3725917)   #19
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Le Mans Legends

Masters launches new Le Mans Legends Series
Le Mans sports and GT cars from 1995 – 2011 set for new series
Le Mans veteran Nicolas Minassian to act as Series Director
Pilot race planned for 2017 with series launch in 2018
*
Masters Historic Racing, one of Europe’s leading promoters of historic motor racing, has announced its latest initiative, a series of races for Le Mans eligible sports and GT cars from 1995 to 2011. The series will begin in 2018 but a pilot race will be run at Spa-Francorchamps this September (15-17), a circuit at which many of the cars raced in period.
*
The Masters Le Mans Legends series is for sports-racing cars from the International Sports Racing Series, the FIA Sports Car Championship, European Le Mans Series, American Le Mans Series, Intercontinental Le Mans Cup and Le Mans Endurance Series. With cars eligible from the earlier SR1 and SR2 regulations and then the subsequent LMP1 and LMP2 regulations, there is a vast number of chassis race-ready for this exciting new series. In addition, there will be categories for IMSA sports cars of the equivalent period and GT1 and GT2 cars from the equivalent period.
*
The series will initially have a class structure split into three main eras: 1995-1999, 2000-2005 and 2006-2011.* Each era will also be split into four categories for LMP1, LMP2, GT1 and GT2 to cater for the differing types of cars, giving everyone an opportunity to race for awards. Regulations will mirror those used in period.
*
The 2018 series will run at a maximum of six Masters Historic Racing events at circuits in Europe that can accommodate the speeds and safety requirements of the cars. The race weekend format in 2018 will likely consist of two 30-minute qualifying sessions and a 45-minute race, with mandatory pit stops in each race and penalties applied to professional drivers to equate the field.
*
In addition, ace sports car racer Nicolas Minassian will act as Series Director with responsibility for overseeing technical stability and promoting grid sizes.
*
“I am delighted to work with Masters Historic Racing on this new initiative,” said Nicolas. “These are superb cars which captured the hearts of the fans and the drivers and with them being recent cars, they are fresh in people’s minds. This is the ultimate historic racing category and one I believe that has enormous potential with so many cars built from major motor manufacturers and low-volume race car constructors. I wish I could find a car for myself!”
*
Masters Historic Racing’s Ron Maydon is very excited about the new series: “I have been looking at the bigger picture and what will be the next era of historic racing for a long time and we feel that this is the perfect series. These are fabulous cars and will undoubtedly thrill fans and drivers alike. We are delighted to be working with Nic Minassian on this project too as his name is synonymous with these cars.
*
“We will be running a pilot race this year at the Spa Six Hours meeting and then plan to build on that over the winter for our series in 2018 but we are announcing it now so that people have a long lead-in time to join the must-do historic racing class.”
*
The Masters Le Mans Legends series will run at the Spa Six Hours on September 15-17 and news of early entries to the series will come as race weekend approaches.

-ends-
*
For more information follow us on Twitter @MastersHistoric and Facebook Masters Historic racing and www.mastershistoricracing.com
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Old 12 Apr 2017, 18:28 (Ref:3725923)   #20
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When the HSCC started in 1966, cars such as D-Types featured in their first race. They were only 10 or 11 years old then. Mind you, a D-Type is clearly from another era when compared to a 1966 GT40, whereas the cars in the picture on the Masters website look bang up-to-date to my eye...
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Old 12 Apr 2017, 18:59 (Ref:3725937)   #21
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Yes, although looking very current, some of the cars suggested are much like those (or exactly those!) that are already accepted as historic in the USA. Maybe the fact that MHR have a presence over the pond with their F1 series has influenced the initiative.....

Interesting that the period 1995-2011 is virtually same as Pete Auto have adopted for their GT1 cars. (See first post)

Last edited by Mike Bell; 12 Apr 2017 at 19:15.
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Old 13 Apr 2017, 07:20 (Ref:3726049)   #22
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Ok, so if no one else will bite then .....
The top flight of this era of cars are very serious bits of kit. Surely now a proper licensing system has to be initiated - a licence and medical/fitness test that ensures that these cars are driven by capable, fit and responsible people? Having seen the struggles that some have had with Group C cars is it not irresponsible to not make sure that these car's drivers are "fit for purpose" - no pun intended?
When it would appear that today the only real test of driver's suitability can be carried out with a vernier caliper (to measure the drivers wallet) there are serious questions that need asking.
Just my ten pennies worth.
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Old 13 Apr 2017, 08:27 (Ref:3726054)   #23
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Ah, as has just been pointed out to me away from here, this would of course be Appendix J in any case, so subject to all modern strictures and regulations, none of the opt-outs and waivers from Appendix K would apply.
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Old 13 Apr 2017, 08:46 (Ref:3726059)   #24
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Surely now a proper licensing system has to be initiated - a licence and medical/fitness test that ensures that these cars are driven by capable, fit and responsible people? Having seen the struggles that some have had with Group C cars is it not irresponsible to not make sure that these car's drivers are "fit for purpose" - no pun intended?
Simon, are you introducing the "super licence for historic" notion here? We already have the power to weight ratio haven't we? Should we call for a qualification system based on a percentage of the best time achieved? Or ask a pro - also called Elite- to establish the best time of each car on the grid? Probably in the very short term we'll see two different kinds of racing, one for the pros and one for the rest of the world looking for pleasure only.
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Old 13 Apr 2017, 10:15 (Ref:3726065)   #25
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Simon, are you introducing the "super licence for historic" notion here? We already have the power to weight ratio haven't we? Should we call for a qualification system based on a percentage of the best time achieved? Or ask a pro - also called Elite- to establish the best time of each car on the grid? Probably in the very short term we'll see two different kinds of racing, one for the pros and one for the rest of the world looking for pleasure only.
The trouble here Gerard, and you've raced at places like Le Mans in modern terms so you know about this, the speed differentials.

With cars capable of taking Eau Rouge flat, you need serious skills both in terms of driving standards but surely in managing the speed of the competition around you. Also and just talking of fitness, the speed makes fitness a purpose. In running, an individual might take on a Marathon as his first race and achieve a +5 hours time being satisfied but by doing so, you don't put people around you at risk as the big guys are already debriefing or probably already home by the time you've finished.
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