[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Juntos]

If I was ACO, I'd start to get nervous.

[Damian Baldi]

The current situation seems to be to find some kind of hybridization to meet ACO's requirement at a cost and complexity that meet IMSA's requirement. Call it as you want, DPi 2.0, Hypercar, LMP1 NG.

A system that only suply power to the rear train have sense if they can make it fit on the current DPi cars.

It's clear that if the hybrid system is spec and unique, it doesn't have any relevance to road cars, it become pure marketing.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by skycafe

But was Hybrid being on the Toyota, Audi and Porsche the reason it was a great period, or was it Toyota, Audi and Porsche contesting? If they were there and committed to being there and not hybrid would it not have been as good?

I think the hybrid certainly added to it. The added boost and when drivers chose to conserve and when others chose to deplete added to the side by side racing.

It would've been good without it, but in terms of on track racing, I'd say hybrid certainly added to the show.

Edit: Adding videos. For sure the hybrids added to these. The variety in power delivery is front and centre here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b-wu3cVjeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZOMYjaGt8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Svn3oU0go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGQZ9XNq6mU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzULPaHGIFs

[skycafe]

Is this 'plug in' system like what Dyson had on their Lola? Same concept?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Is this 'plug in' system like what Dyson had on their Lola? Same concept?

I think the idea of the "plug in" system isn't that you literally plug it into the wall to charge - but rather is a spec hybrid system that you buy from Bosch or whatever, and you can fit it to any LMP1/DPi. Like it's plugging in.

Plugging in may not be the best term for a hybrid system

[crooky]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think the hybrid certainly added to it. The added boost and when drivers chose to conserve and when others chose to deplete added to the side by side racing.

It would've been good without it, but in terms of on track racing, I'd say hybrid certainly added to the show.

It’s a good point.. I agree with this, that the hybrid probably did make the racing even better. But maybe Rebellion, Pescarolo, Strakka etc could’ve been in the mix as well if there wasn’t a need for a hybrid system?

All maybes though, all I know for sure was that it was a great time for racing at Le Mans and a time to look back at and enjoy.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by crooky

It’s a good point.. I agree with this, that the hybrid probably did make the racing even better. But maybe Rebellion, Pescarolo, Strakka etc could’ve been in the mix as well if there wasn’t a need for a hybrid system?

That's exactly the bad thing about the hybrid system, spec or custom. Teams as ByKolles, Dragonspeed in ACO, or CORE, Juncos at IMSA would have an extra complexity to play with. They have enough just trying to race the cars. An hybrid system means thay they will need extra personel and dedication, less practice time and will need more bucks.

There isn't a perfect solution for ACO without messing up IMSA. The solution should be as simple and cheap as IMSA teams could manage and afford.

[Sodemo]

I personally think that if car makers want to enter the top class, they should be allowed to do so, but they need to use a road going engine block and perhaps some kind of road derived hybrid system. Naturally they would both be "uprated", with a bigger turbo and other tuning done to the engine and then a hybrid system which is tuned for racing etc.

[skycafe]

The system that I was thinking of that Dyson used in the ALMS was Flybrid, so it was not a hybrid system.

[S griffin]

Hmm that sounds interesting. How did this flybrid system work. To be fair I’m not bothered if they stick with hybrid, part of it is about future technology

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Hmm that sounds interesting. How did this flybrid system work. To be fair I’m not bothered if they stick with hybrid, part of it is about future technology

You can find it if you seach "Dyson Flybrid" on google or what have you. It is rewarding.

[YZFrider]

Pretty sure Dysons system was a hybrid, it just used flywheels to store and release the energy rather than a battery

[carbsmith]

Even the ByKolles was closer to the Toyotas on qualifying pace than a Courage or Panoz was to the Bentley, the apex LMP900 car. Rebellion was about where Dome was. I remember in the early 00s that direct injection was almost as contentious of a competitive advantage cost item as hybrids are now, but now every car on the grid has had it for a while. If it's not one thing it's another, privateers only flourish when there's either no factory or they can get the same car.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by YZFrider

Pretty sure Dysons system was a hybrid, it just used flywheels to store and release the energy rather than a battery

Technically I guess so, but would it be legislated and regulated the same way in a racing rule set? That is why I said I didn't think it was "hybrid."

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Edit: Adding videos. For sure the hybrids added to thesel]

Thanks for the videos, brightened the day! I was stunned in watching video of Toyota private test at Sebring this year at the car exiting the hairpin, which is bumpy, and the car just lept forward without struggle, a masterpiece of engineering and technology.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

There is some noise today at SC365 and Racer.com about DPi 2.0 and Hypercar going to a possible commond rule set. It would be the current DPi with more freedom on the shape and a spec hybrid system working on the rear train.

Everything is still grey, but this path looks better.

I don't think that's a very good conclusion of this story (and I can't see what other story you could mean from today):

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/i...n-for-dpi-2-0/

Yes, Atherton talks about common rules but I don't think the hybridization of DPI is directly related to hypercar. In fact, Atherton says they're doing their own thing according to their own schedule.

And ACO was not at Mid-Ohio to talk about hypercars:

Hodgson said Bouvet’s presence in Ohio, while during the WEC Spa weekend, was on the grounds of the ACO being the homologation authority for LMP2, which DPi is based off.

I can't see any new story related to DPI or hypercars on Racer.com except that Pruett column few days ago.

[TF110]

I think the hybrid added to the excitement but it was also responsible for the entries of Toyota and Porsche. They entered because of the hybrid rules, not despite them. I don't like the idea of a hybrid plug and play.

[Damian Baldi]

What I think about ACO and the hypercar situation, is that the ACO made a step too far ahead and nobody followed them. Only Toyota is ready to jump into the hypercar era, but they have make it clear that they want truly competition from another big manufacturer. If there isn't other manufacturer interested in the hypercar rules beside Toyota, they will leave and the hypercar rules will be erased.

On ther other side, IMSA have a lot more friendly and cost caped rules with several manufactures talking in the same table, including Lexus. The ACO could have a good escape path going to DPi 2.0 if their hypercar rules doesn't atract another big manufacturer.

I'm not against ACO, but they rised the bar maybe beyond the reach of other manufacturers beside Toyota. They need a plan B just in case nobody want to join. Maybe even McLaren and Aston Martin are too small for Toyota, and they want Ford, BMW or Mercedes. Who knows.

On the IMSA side, I think the manufacturers and small teams don't want anything about hybrid technology, but if they get a spec hybrid package that allow them to race at Le Mans, maybe the offert is good enough to get the checks and be able to race at Daytona, Sebring and Le Mans for the same price.

I hate all this hybrid and complex systems, but it's what we have now. I'll enjoy the non-HY LMP1 at Le Mans next month, a bit of old school racing without all that electronic BS. Rebellion, SMP, Dragonspeed and ByKolles too, trying to survive 24hs. If the cars broken, they will spit fire not sparks.

[TF110]

I don't think Toyota cares about the rules being hypercar or bust. Like Leupen said in the recent interview, they don't have a hypercar (yet at least) so they prefer to make a prototype. Remember that they were all ready to make an ers-h hybrid for the previous next-gen rules which were going to allow 10mj and 3 hybrid systems. I think as long as its relevant (hybrid or something) they're all for it. Unless it's GTE+ or whatever.

[hondafan37]

Led by Hodgson, Thursday’s meeting explored ways of introducing a form of “mild hybridization” into the current platform as well as increasing manufacturer-specific styling cues to the prototypes.

Hodgson said the proposed measures would open up “additional value” to manufacturers by showcasing better brand recognition, which has been limited in the first-gen ruleset.

“Obviously when DPi was conceived, it was conceived with the intent of having DPis race alongside LMP2 cars,” Hodgson told Sportscar365. “We didn’t want to stray too far away from the efficiency of the base P2 platform and grant too much styling.

“But now as DPi has become a class on its own individually, there’s an opportunity to look at things a little differently as we move towards the next five-year homologation period.”

What does Hogdson mean by that? Prototypes with larger cabins? Cars with a style more similar to Hypercars or GTP?
In the form of the cars, this seems closer to the first Hypercar regulation of the ACO.

[Sodemo]

But again, what value are manufacturer styling cues to the likes of ByKolles or Rebellion or any other indie that might want to enter?

[Mike E]

Manufacturer styling cues were meant to be an option, not a requirement. Your car could look like a garden shed as long as it is in the aero/weight/power windows specified by the rules (as originally proposed).

[TheMightyM]

John Dagys has a new opinion piece out — it’s clearly labeled as such — in which he calls for the ACO and WEC to adopt DPi. Sample quote:

Pundits and industry insiders have been stating the obvious for months, in that the global adoption of IMSA’s DPi platform would be the most sustainable route for manufacturers, privateer teams and for sports car racing worldwide.

And with all other options exhausted, it appears to be the only remaining choice that the FIA and ACO have.

[TF110]

I dont share his opinion. I dont believe its the last choice remaining either.

[Akrapovic]

I know it's an opinion piece, but I find the statement "with all other options exhausted" to be wide of the mark. All that's happened is some poorly formulated ideas have been thrown about. We've had more options than that in the last 5 pages of the thread for god sake.

If we're going down the BoP route, then use DPi. It's tried, tested and works. But if we're not doing BoP, then let's not pretend there are no options.