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Old 16 Jun 2009, 19:48 (Ref:2484689)   #16
JP12
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The light blue TR in the links posted above looks fantastic.

I am a big fan of the 40min race format and the relaxed regulation so I will have my MGB back on track racing with the CSCC next year sporting some 'modsport' parts that aren't legal in other series.
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 20:32 (Ref:2484713)   #17
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Doesn't the Equipe GTS series do long races as well but they can't be at the same high level as they CSCC as they only allow proper historic FIA papered cars and run under proper regs..
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 21:37 (Ref:2484780)   #18
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I think the level Andy may have been suggesting is the (and I am using this word carefully) 'budget' end of the spectrum. In other words club racers with trailers and tents that look after thier own cars. And without wishing to get drawn into a war about it, I think the number of entries say all that needs to be said on the VFM front, percieved or otherwise. I don't have and can't afford to build an FIA car but thanks to CSCC I was able to run my old racer in its bits and pieces state of tune at Spa and achieve a lifelong ambition.
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 22:57 (Ref:2484858)   #19
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Originally Posted by Podd37 View Post
I think the level Andy may have been suggesting is the (and I am using this word carefully) 'budget' end of the spectrum. In other words club racers with trailers and tents that look after thier own cars. And without wishing to get drawn into a war about it, I think the number of entries say all that needs to be said on the VFM front, percieved or otherwise. I don't have and can't afford to build an FIA car but thanks to CSCC I was able to run my old racer in its bits and pieces state of tune at Spa and achieve a lifelong ambition.
Quite. I think my earlier post has been greatly misinterpreted.
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Old 16 Jun 2009, 23:14 (Ref:2484870)   #20
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Doesn't the Equipe GTS series do long races as well but they can't be at the same high level as they CSCC as they only allow proper historic FIA papered cars and run under proper regs..
I think the point that was being made (and possibly misconstrued by some posters) is that the CSCC are running mini-enduro type races at the grass roots level of club racing. Equipe GTS does not run to full FiA regs as a matter of fact but I'm sure they don't allow replica classics. Neither does HSCC for that matter and following some recent reg. changes neither is Masters but all that is irrelevant in this thread. The point is that CSCC offer low cost VFM racing for a wide range of car types and specs. in a broadly historic format at a limited constrained level. My original point was that the Marshall's forum expressed that they did not like the longer races that CSCC put on and yet these to my mind as a racer are the appeal. I found it a strange sentiment from our friends in orange when there are so many other series/championships running longer races (as detailed by other contributors).

Just to put an even spin on these commments I am currently very happy with the way that the CSCC are running things and find their meetings to be excellent events but I am also building a car to run in full FIA AppK events so will soon be in good place to compare the merits of the reasonably priced vs. the "you're having a laugh!" entry fee race events.
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 08:53 (Ref:2485024)   #21
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I think the point that was being made (and possibly misconstrued by some posters) is that the CSCC are running mini-enduro type races at the grass roots level of club racing.
[MOD] I know, my point was to demonstrate that one shouldn't set out to make comparisions, simply because it will be misconstrued and I've tried to make this point to certain posters previously. Don't forget, organisers read these threads too not just us posters. [/MOD]

FWIW Masters, CTCRC, GTS etc. are all club racing series or championships and therefore "grass roots", there is no difference in my book. If you accept that the cost to buy and build (say) a Griffith 400 is around 80k pst, then it really isn't grass roots is it? Yet there are Griffs running with CSCC. Again this is not a criticism, far from it but let's just be clear here, we are all club racers racing what we like, where we see the best benefit.

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Equipe GTS does not run to full FiA regs as a matter of fact but I'm sure they don't allow replica classics. Neither does HSCC for that matter and following some recent reg. changes neither is Masters but all that is irrelevant in this thread.
Correct.

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Originally Posted by DaveGT6
The point is that CSCC offer low cost VFM racing for a wide range of car types and specs. in a broadly historic format at a limited constrained level. My original point was that the Marshall's forum expressed that they did not like the longer races that CSCC put on and yet these to my mind as a racer are the appeal. I found it a strange sentiment from our friends in orange when there are so many other series/championships running longer races (as detailed by other contributors).
Yes, but this also depends on grid sizes too. I concur, longer races lead to more overtaking and better opportunities. In my case the old BTCC Group 1 races were often around 30 to 40 mins, therefore the Masters 45 mins is pretty much of a similar nature except now we have a pit stop etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGT6
Just to put an even spin on these comments I am currently very happy with the way that the CSCC are running things and find their meetings to be excellent events but I am also building a car to run in full FIA AppK events so will soon be in good place to compare the merits of the reasonably priced vs. the "you're having a laugh!" entry fee race events.
FWIW I can't go to Magny Cours due to time constraints, so I've entered two 30 mins enduros at the MGCC Festival on the same weekend. I won't be racing against like cars unfortunately but will get significant track time for around the same cost per hour as I get from Masters.

Of course this VFM argument goes around all the time. IMO it is more about what you want to race and then find a club to provide the races. To suggest that one series is better than another for whatever reason is a preference thing and shouldn't appear in a thread celebrating what was apparently a great weekend at Oulton Park.
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 17:13 (Ref:2485289)   #22
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Odd then that I was in a 45mins two driver event at Castle Combe on Saturday. I'll make certain Masters know that they are of a lesser level than the CSCC. I'll also tell the HSCC that their longer races are of lesser stature shall I?
I hate to say this but it appears that this quote seems to have upset us all!! Perhaps we misjudged the tongue firmly lodged in cheek?

I think there is probably a huge difference between the average value of a Masters grid and a CSCC one. Of course there are very expensive cars running but they are the minority. Regardless of how their rules or lack thereof are percieved the format is probably one of the most successful historic series in the UK as regards entry numbers and that in this day and age speaks volumes.
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 17:32 (Ref:2485299)   #23
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I didn't intend to take this OT. I merely wished to put some lighthearted balance into the thread. The CSCC organizers and team, some of whom I have raced against previously know me reasonably well, either from here or from the tracks. And knowing them I'm not surprised that they've come up with this successful formula. It is to be applauded.

The Oulton event, based upon this thread, was another success and indeed seems to have made full grids too.

These two points alone should be celebrated but the fact of the matter is that there are many organisations that run mini enduros and for club racers irrespective of the value of car.

Enjoy it, keep telling us about your experiences but don't try to spin things as some people connected with PR are apt so to do.
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 17:48 (Ref:2485314)   #24
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They all offer VFM otherwise why would anyone enter? The CSCC is a great concept and its regs are more relaxed than the others, but to suggest any of them are at any particular "level" is missing the point.
I think its fairly safe to say that most people (ie drivers of classic race cars) percieve the Masters events to be the top of the tree, certainly as far as prestige is concerned. VFM, well that is another thing

I'm extremely happy racing with the CSCC and have no problems with any aspect of the club or the race series. I wouldn't mind doing a HSCC, CTCRC or Masters event but my car isn't eligible for those and the cost aspect of Masters is certainly difficult to justify.

BTW, sorry to have missed you all at Oulton, glad you all had fun.
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Old 17 Jun 2009, 17:57 (Ref:2485324)   #25
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Hi Moose. Your beasty burbling around was sadly missed!
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Old 18 Jun 2009, 08:29 (Ref:2485710)   #26
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FWIW I have raced my Lancia with HSCC, CSCC and Masters.

Yes they all have their merits and all have their downsides too. However the perception, as Moose stated, is that Masters is far more expensive and in many ways aimed at a certain market.

I would also say the only series I have had contact in is the Masters, pushed off by an over agressive driver causing great damage to my car and my neck. Said driver was up in front of the COC 3 times over the weekend, and I was told he would not be invited back, wrong he was and is still racing with them. This gets them a bad name, many others I know have raced with them and experienced similar damage. On the plus side though, if you take the family they are well looked after. And I'm sure I will race with them again.

At the end of the day we all do this for fun, and generally I'd say the longer we get in the car the better we feel. Whats god for one is not good for another, especially in these times financially. Is does seem that CSCC have very full grids and reserves in waiting at every meeting except Anglessey. (personally really miffed we couldn't make that one, great track!) So that means a number of people like the format.

Rather then bicker or take things to personally if we have our favourites lets get on with our hobby and have fun. After all we all want to race somewhere, does it matter what people think of who we race with? No!, we individually want what we percieve as VFM and get out there!
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Old 18 Jun 2009, 11:11 (Ref:2485815)   #27
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Originally Posted by Pretty Vacant
Rather then bicker or take things to personally if we have our favourites lets get on with our hobby and have fun. After all we all want to race somewhere, does it matter what people think of who we race with? No!, we individually want what we percieve as VFM and get out there!
Well said that man!

Last edited by John Turner; 18 Jun 2009 at 11:16. Reason: Placing quotes in parenthesis.
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Old 18 Jun 2009, 17:06 (Ref:2485971)   #28
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Good God! Was that sensible? Someone agreed!
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Old 18 Jun 2009, 17:27 (Ref:2485983)   #29
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I agree too. However names are being taken and postings will be used in evidence.
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Old 18 Jun 2009, 18:27 (Ref:2486014)   #30
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B****r caught by the sensible police!
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