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Old 27 May 2009, 19:49 (Ref:2470468)   #1
MarkkuAlen86
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Universal Touring Car Regs

As far as I know, most national series around the world converted to Super Touring rules in the 90's just due to it's popularity, which of course brought us the brilliant World Touring Car Cup.

I can't speak for V8 Supercars, I don't have the channel to follow it; but having watched the BTCC/WTCC over the last 5+ years I can say in my opinion they are in a bad situation right now.

Would it be possible for the FIA to publish one set of regs for touring car championships around the world? Maybe scrap the WTCC for the ETCC again, and have a World shoot out race at the end of the year?

Also, if each countries regs are the same, touring cars from one series could enter the next with no trouble?

Saying this though, I realise Australia loves their V8's, so maybe it would be harder to convince them to change regs?
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Old 27 May 2009, 20:00 (Ref:2470473)   #2
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V8 Supercars = 720hp RWD monsters basicaly. Leave 'em alone

And the FIA does have a formula for all over the world, Super 2000, which is currently used in the WTCC, BTCC, STCC, DTC, ADAC Procar, and probably something else too. The only series which manages its rules properly seems to be the BTCC, there has been no major upsets regarding the technical regs there, perhaps the WTCC and STCC can learn from them.

Basicaly, there is a universal formula there, its just wether a series wants to choose it or not. DTM is not about 2ltr touring, neither is the Aussie V8's.

And, IMO, the BTCC is at its strongest since the fall of Supertouring, and, as I said above, the 'FIA Touring Car Bureau' could learn alot from the BTCC.
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Old 27 May 2009, 20:58 (Ref:2470507)   #3
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Here's what I would like to see as a universal ruleset:

Merge DTM and WTCC into what both series really are, i.e. an ETCC. Have a two categories, under and over 3l. The "under-category" for the current S2000 cars, but also for Leon Supercopas, BMW 130i-Cup and the like, with the pure-breed S2000-cars slowly being phased out. The "over-category" for V8SC-style versions of the BMW M3, Audi A5 and Mercedes' new CLK-replacement.

The rest of the world can either run to both rules or two either the over (Australia) or the under category (GB, Sweden).
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Old 27 May 2009, 21:31 (Ref:2470550)   #4
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V8SC style cars may be a bit too extreme and costly. V8 Superstars cars with a bit more power would suit better.
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Old 27 May 2009, 21:33 (Ref:2470552)   #5
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Originally Posted by Speed-King View Post
Here's what I would like to see as a universal ruleset:

Merge DTM and WTCC into what both series really are, i.e. an ETCC. Have a two categories, under and over 3l. The "under-category" for the current S2000 cars, but also for Leon Supercopas, BMW 130i-Cup and the like, with the pure-breed S2000-cars slowly being phased out. The "over-category" for V8SC-style versions of the BMW M3, Audi A5 and Mercedes' new CLK-replacement.

The rest of the world can either run to both rules or two either the over (Australia) or the under category (GB, Sweden).
I think with the way things are, any re-shuffle would be an improvement.

Cost-cutting needs to be implemented, it shouldn't cost as much as it does to go national touring car racing. We've got F1 to be the forefront of technology, I don't think touring cars has to be spending so much.

I'd like to see saloon cars used again (It is TOURING cars, not hatchbacks), a weight penalty implemented for using RWD cars. I think it should be a 2.0 formula, naturally aspirated. Only the wheel arches should be modified from the standard body shape to take bigger wheels. Control tyres, and a standardised rear wing (if the manufacturers wanted). I also think limited engine modifications, and standardised suspensions are a must to keep racing close.

That's what I'd like to see, but then again I'm a sucker for super touring regs. I'd just like to see early 90's Super Touring rules with abit less freedom for modification and cost-cutting implemented.
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Old 27 May 2009, 22:22 (Ref:2470582)   #6
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V8 Supercars = 720hp RWD monsters basicaly. Leave 'em alone

And the FIA does have a formula for all over the world, Super 2000, which is currently used in the WTCC, BTCC, STCC, DTC, ADAC Procar, and probably something else too. The only series which manages its rules properly seems to be the BTCC, there has been no major upsets regarding the technical regs there, perhaps the WTCC and STCC can learn from them.

Basicaly, there is a universal formula there, its just wether a series wants to choose it or not. DTM is not about 2ltr touring, neither is the Aussie V8's.

And, IMO, the BTCC is at its strongest since the fall of Supertouring, and, as I said above, the 'FIA Touring Car Bureau' could learn alot from the BTCC.
Absolutely true. Add the Portuguese TCC, the (very small) Italian TCC, and some more small national series all around Europe, including Bulgaria and Asia.
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Old 27 May 2009, 22:24 (Ref:2470585)   #7
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Here's what I would like to see as a universal ruleset:

Merge DTM and WTCC into what both series really are, i.e. an ETCC. Have a two categories, under and over 3l. The "under-category" for the current S2000 cars, but also for Leon Supercopas, BMW 130i-Cup and the like, with the pure-breed S2000-cars slowly being phased out. The "over-category" for V8SC-style versions of the BMW M3, Audi A5 and Mercedes' new CLK-replacement.

The rest of the world can either run to both rules or two either the over (Australia) or the under category (GB, Sweden).
You want to have steering-wheel gearbox, sequential gearbox and H pattern gearbox together? FWD and RWD together? Turbo diesel, petrol and turbo petrol together?
With all the mess already going on, I don't think it would be a good idea. At least, it wouldn't come out as professional (and therefore deserve the FIA title) as Wtcc, Btcc, Stcc and Dtc.
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Old 27 May 2009, 22:27 (Ref:2470590)   #8
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I think with the way things are, any re-shuffle would be an improvement.

Cost-cutting needs to be implemented, it shouldn't cost as much as it does to go national touring car racing. We've got F1 to be the forefront of technology, I don't think touring cars has to be spending so much.

I'd like to see saloon cars used again (It is TOURING cars, not hatchbacks), a weight penalty implemented for using RWD cars. I think it should be a 2.0 formula, naturally aspirated. Only the wheel arches should be modified from the standard body shape to take bigger wheels. Control tyres, and a standardised rear wing (if the manufacturers wanted). I also think limited engine modifications, and standardised suspensions are a must to keep racing close.

That's what I'd like to see, but then again I'm a sucker for super touring regs. I'd just like to see early 90's Super Touring rules with abit less freedom for modification and cost-cutting implemented.
Cost cutting - absolutely true.
A weight penalty for RWDs is already there, which is why BMW chose the 5-speed H pattern gearbox (you save 30 kgs). As for the rest, I fully agree
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Old 28 May 2009, 08:22 (Ref:2470738)   #9
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Cost cutting - absolutely true.
A weight penalty for RWDs is already there, which is why BMW chose the 5-speed H pattern gearbox (you save 30 kgs). As for the rest, I fully agree
Really? I didn't know BMW used a H-Patter gearbox.
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Old 28 May 2009, 11:00 (Ref:2470821)   #10
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You want to have steering-wheel gearbox, sequential gearbox and H pattern gearbox together? FWD and RWD together? Turbo diesel, petrol and turbo petrol together?
With all the mess already going on, I don't think it would be a good idea. At least, it wouldn't come out as professional (and therefore deserve the FIA title) as Wtcc, Btcc, Stcc and Dtc.
At the very least, any new regs have GOT to be able to balance between rwd and fwd- if you go FWD only, then you lose BMW, historically the backbone of touring car racing in Europe. If you go RWD only, then potentially you lose almost everyone else....

I'm almost tempted to say why don't we just reinvent the old 80's Group A regs, but with a much higher minimum production to cut out the extreme homologation specials that appeared in '87/8....either that or the original BTCC 2-litre regs of 1990 before the manufacturers messed them up with wings and splitters....I don't care particularly whether we race 4-door saloons or hatches and coupes, and given the mess the FIA have made of equalising them, I don't care if we never see a turbo-diesel again....
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Old 28 May 2009, 11:20 (Ref:2470840)   #11
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So, basicaly, re-introducing Class B of Grp A?
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Old 28 May 2009, 11:24 (Ref:2470842)   #12
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I think a two-class structure would be best.

TC1 should be the blue riband class of tintops. 2 litre turbocharged (400hp, dyno limit) engines, rear or four wheel drive. To stop the whole business about aero, require a standard design large rear wing (large mainly as the rear wing should be large enough to be a big sponsor spot). Couple that with a standard car width (for the use of fender flares and door sills to get cars to it) and a flat floor, there could be interesting racing. 4WD cars would have the penalty of narrower tyres. FWD road cars should be allowed to be converted to 4WD. Sequential boxes.

TC2 should be the national formula. TC1 cars with a higher minimum weight, step floor, and detuned engine should be allowed to race in TC2.

Out and out TC2 cars would be 1.6-1.8 turbos (280hp), smallish hatchbacks with flat floors, sequential gearboxes and smaller rear wings. Part of the fun would be watching a turbocharged Renault Twingo cheekily get past a TC1 car in the tight bits, only to be gobbled up by the Impreza and the process to repeat itself.
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Old 28 May 2009, 11:25 (Ref:2470844)   #13
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why not allow turbo diesels, but also turbo petrols, so if someone thinks they can make diesels work, which compared to turbo petrols would be nigh-on impossible, they can try. And fail, forcing everyone down the petrol route.
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Old 28 May 2009, 12:05 (Ref:2470867)   #14
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why not allow turbo diesels, but also turbo petrols, so if someone thinks they can make diesels work, which compared to turbo petrols would be nigh-on impossible, they can try. And fail, forcing everyone down the petrol route.
Because the problem is not the diesel, it's the turbo. Turbo means higher costs and difficulty to control the engines' power.
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Old 28 May 2009, 12:14 (Ref:2470877)   #15
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In rallying there is plenty of experience with keeping turbo's under control. A very tight and well checked airintakerestrictor does the job.
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Old 28 May 2009, 13:37 (Ref:2470933)   #16
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Because the problem is not the diesel, it's the turbo. Turbo means higher costs and difficulty to control the engines' power.
Yes, so let in turbo diesels with the turbo petrols. Petrol would have an advantage, but if a company like VAG who love diesels wants to enter with one, let them.
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Old 28 May 2009, 13:58 (Ref:2470939)   #17
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I think this thread and all the confusion already proves how hard it is for anyone to come up with a set of acceptable rules for all.

Given the current climate, expecting anything but Super 2000 to continue for at least the next few years is foolhardy.
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Old 28 May 2009, 14:36 (Ref:2470956)   #18
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I think this thread and all the confusion already proves how hard it is for anyone to come up with a set of acceptable rules for all.

Given the current climate, expecting anything but Super 2000 to continue for at least the next few years is foolhardy.
In China, the words 'crisis' and 'opportunity' are agglomerated in one word. This would be the right time to decide that,from 2011,cars have to be cheaper.
Of course it's difficult. But it has been done in the past and in other series, why not the Wtcc?
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Old 28 May 2009, 14:37 (Ref:2470957)   #19
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Yes, so let in turbo diesels with the turbo petrols. Petrol would have an advantage, but if a company like VAG who love diesels wants to enter with one, let them.
Why not forbid any kind of turbo and do the same thing while having a normally aspirated engine, which is easier to control and cheaper?
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Old 28 May 2009, 15:05 (Ref:2470971)   #20
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Why not forbid any kind of turbo and do the same thing while having a normally aspirated engine, which is easier to control and cheaper?
The majority of new cars on the road have got turbo's, and it means we can reduce engine size to 1.8 for example, and still have more power. As Stedevil always says, it's about making these racing cars more relevant to the road. As werner said, the WRC has successfully controlled these, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
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Old 28 May 2009, 16:00 (Ref:2471001)   #21
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I personally wouldn't like to see the cars have any less power, I think they are slightly down on power as it is.

I would like see power levels of around 330-350 BHP.
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Old 29 May 2009, 11:43 (Ref:2471531)   #22
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Would someone explain to me what is the purpose of more power on racing cars? Which one do you think ismore important,having many cars on the grid or having few cars with more power?
More power means more expensive, and so does the turbo. I don't think the spectators care if the cars have a turbo or not, the teams do.
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Old 29 May 2009, 11:52 (Ref:2471536)   #23
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I think many of the regs here are just over complicated, which means more expense, more performance gap, and lesser grids.

One class, 2.0ltr formula with control tyres and a standardised rear wing (if none at all). Naturally Aspirated with strict engine, brake and suspension rules would make for close racing, and be even more affordable for privateers.

I don't understand the need for turbos, the majority of diesel roadcars are turbocharged, I wouldn't say the same of petrol cars.
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Old 29 May 2009, 13:51 (Ref:2471603)   #24
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I think many of the regs here are just over complicated, which means more expense, more performance gap, and lesser grids.

One class, 2.0ltr formula with control tyres and a standardised rear wing (if none at all). Naturally Aspirated with strict engine, brake and suspension rules would make for close racing, and be even more affordable for privateers.
Exactly. I wouldn't take the rear wing out, though, the cars have to look sporty. A standardized rear wing would be a perfect solution, cheap and sporty-looking.
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Old 29 May 2009, 14:07 (Ref:2471613)   #25
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Would someone explain to me what is the purpose of more power on racing cars? Which one do you think ismore important,having many cars on the grid or having few cars with more power?
More power means more expensive, and so does the turbo. I don't think the spectators care if the cars have a turbo or not, the teams do.
More power = more spectacular, and S2000 has been heavily criticised for being unspectacular. And more power does not necessarily mean more expensive, how about a standard turbo? Plus it's about relative costs, if the cars are more spectacular, more people will watch, so more money will come in.
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