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Old 28 Nov 2013, 20:57 (Ref:3337927)   #1
Bob Riebe
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USCC in 2016 and 2017

Next year, is for all practical purposes a, let's see how this turns out, year.

In your opinion, how do you think the rules for 2015 or 2016 will differ, it they do?
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Old 28 Nov 2013, 22:24 (Ref:3337944)   #2
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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe View Post
Next year, is for all practical purposes a, let's see how this turns out, year.

In your opinion, how do you think the rules for 2015 or 2016 will differ, it they do?

Just some BoP stuff, nothing major until the new rule set in 2017.







L.P.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 20:20 (Ref:3338296)   #3
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Just some BoP stuff, nothing major until the new rule set in 2017.







L.P.
Agreed. They need to find a good compromise and stick with it to give teams confidence they have a chance and invest in machinery so there are decent grids until the compromise years are over. I hope they can find a way for DP and P2 to race well so in 2017 there is something worth saving. My other fear is that all classes eventually go to spec tires. In the long run the 2 pro classes should be open tires and fuel IMO.
Personally I hope there is no further diverge from ACO rules long term, a big part of the reason I started following sportscars was that I could see the cars from Le Mans race over here in person.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 21:12 (Ref:3338325)   #4
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Agreed. They need to find a good compromise and stick with it to give teams confidence they have a chance and invest in machinery so there are decent grids until the compromise years are over. I hope they can find a way for DP and P2 to race well so in 2017 there is something worth saving. My other fear is that all classes eventually go to spec tires. In the long run the 2 pro classes should be open tires and fuel IMO.
Personally I hope there is no further diverge from ACO rules long term, a big part of the reason I started following sportscars was that I could see the cars from Le Mans race over here in person.
I agree.

I hope/believe in 2017 we will see TUSC basically aligned with the ACO and run P (ACO P-2 eligible at the least), PC (P-3), GTLM (GT+) and GTD (GT). There will of course be the series distinct BoP differences.







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Old 1 Dec 2013, 22:24 (Ref:3339040)   #5
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I agree.

I hope/believe in 2017 we will see TUSC basically aligned with the ACO and run P (ACO P-2 eligible at the least), PC (P-3), GTLM (GT+) and GTD (GT). There will of course be the series distinct BoP differences.







L.P.
That seems like the best case, most realistic solution (knowing P1 is not coming back over here). P3 would be better than PC - we would have diversity in the lower P class. P3 will not be eligible for the Le Mans but at least it will be a common rule set with ELMS to allow additional Euro entries at the big races. I would like to see all GTE cars for GT with a Pro class and an AM class like the WEC, but I really don't see that happening with how well received GTD has been. The key to GT will be what global rules are established and if TUSC decides to adopt them.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 22:30 (Ref:3339043)   #6
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That seems like the best case, most realistic solution (knowing P1 is not coming back over here). P3 would be better than PC - we would have diversity in the lower P class. P3 will not be eligible for the Le Mans but at least it will be a common rule set with ELMS to allow additional Euro entries at the big races. I would like to see all GTE cars for GT with a Pro class and an AM class like the WEC, but I really don't see that happening with how well received GTD has been. The key to GT will be what global rules are established and if TUSC decides to adopt them.
They would pretty much have to adopt the GT convergence rules. It would be pure stupidity to take GT/GT+ cars and alter them instead of letting them run as-is. They could put the pro-am class cars on the Conti crap tires like they do now and there would be plenty of separation.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 22:57 (Ref:3339517)   #7
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I hope/believe in 2017 we will see TUSC basically aligned with the ACO and run P (ACO P-2 eligible at the least), PC (P-3), GTLM (GT+) and GTD (GT). There will of course be the series distinct BoP differences.
That is not real likely unless the France boy wants to play a Panoz and brown-nose the ACO.

Not being governed by the ACO is at least part of the reason, although it is far more personality driven than that, GARRA and the Panoz/IMSA went in two directions.
Panoz was infatuated with LeMans and the France family has always been infatuated with itself.

That is why I am curious.
I want to see how this Dallas type drama plays out.
Sadly, I think road racing in the U.S. is still following Indy car racing into also ran status unless they stop making Mickey Mouse rules like CART and the IRL did and what is left still does.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 23:07 (Ref:3339521)   #8
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That is not real likely unless the France boy wants to play a Panoz and brown-nose the ACO.

Not being governed by the ACO is at least part of the reason, although it is far more personality driven than that, GARRA and the Panoz/IMSA went in two directions.
Panoz was infatuated with LeMans and the France family has always been infatuated with itself.

That is why I am curious.
I want to see how this Dallas type drama plays out.
Sadly, I think road racing in the U.S. is still following Indy car racing into also ran status unless they stop making Mickey Mouse rules like CART and the IRL did and what is left still does.
Being aligned with the ACO and utilizing most of the same manufacturing/class rules is far from what you suggest!







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Old 23 Sep 2014, 17:46 (Ref:3456941)   #9
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That is not real likely unless the France boy wants to play a Panoz and brown-nose the ACO.

Not being governed by the ACO is at least part of the reason, although it is far more personality driven than that, GARRA and the Panoz/IMSA went in two directions.
Panoz was infatuated with LeMans and the France family has always been infatuated with itself.

That is why I am curious.
I want to see how this Dallas type drama plays out.
Sadly, I think road racing in the U.S. is still following Indy car racing into also ran status unless they stop making Mickey Mouse rules like CART and the IRL did and what is left still does.
I guess you never saw Jim France waving the Flag at the premier ACO event (LeMans).

Jim bought the ALMS partially to be part of the global sports car club and at the ACO big table.
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Old 28 Nov 2013, 22:30 (Ref:3337946)   #10
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I don't think that there'll be a huge amount of change, but the key is getting the balance correct though.

Here's a question; not meant to start an argument...

What's the general opinion on matching the two cars? For me, I don't expect the two cars to be equal at Daytona. Nor at Sebring. Nor at Mosport or Road Atlanta or Long Beach. I'd expect one of the types of car to have an advantage on one circuit and one on the other. Starworks' private testing showed that this difference wasn't as major as I'd suspected previously, but I'd still expect a few differences.

And I'd be happy that way, seeing the P2 do well at Daytona, and a DP at Road Atlanta, should be an achievement, and consistency over the season would be key. However, from some discussions, including the entrants' comments, I get the impression that some people would rather see adjustments per race to balance the two types of P car to the individual circuit.

For 2015 and 2016, I can't see many changes to the class structure. Personally I'm not a fan of the PCs, but that's not going to change and there's plenty else to keep me interested.

2016/2017 will hopefully see a bit more convergence with ACO rules, but that's a whole other thread...

Thanks for this new topic
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Old 28 Nov 2013, 22:46 (Ref:3337953)   #11
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Some amount of variation, based on the characteristics of the cars, is fine, and to be expected. The bigger sticking point to my mind will be that NOBODY will want to feel as though their type of car is effectively locked out of a top result, especially at the four endurance races: Daytona, Sebring, Watkins Glen, and Road Atlanta.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 16:48 (Ref:3338201)   #12
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The two types of cars have to have the same lap times at every track.

Possibly one type will have a better chance to outrace the other (DPs on speed tracks, P2 on handling tracks) but the lap times have to be the same—otherwise, the race outcome is predetermined. Some tracks only DPs could win, some tracks, only P2. That is not racing.

If only certain chassis types could win at certain tracks, then much of the season’s outcome would be decided when the schedule was made the Fall prior. Basically, at Petit the series would tell who would have a chance to win the championship based on which type of track was more prevalent.

The idea that one track or another would work for only one chassis type or the other might sound okay now, but wait until fans, teams, and sponsors have to face a few races in a row without much chance of winning. Then complaints will surely come.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 19:37 (Ref:3338279)   #13
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The two types of cars have to have the same lap times at every track.

Possibly one type will have a better chance to outrace the other (DPs on speed tracks, P2 on handling tracks) but the lap times have to be the same—otherwise, the race outcome is predetermined. Some tracks only DPs could win, some tracks, only P2. That is not racing.

If only certain chassis types could win at certain tracks, then much of the season’s outcome would be decided when the schedule was made the Fall prior. Basically, at Petit the series would tell who would have a chance to win the championship based on which type of track was more prevalent.

The idea that one track or another would work for only one chassis type or the other might sound okay now, but wait until fans, teams, and sponsors have to face a few races in a row without much chance of winning. Then complaints will surely come.
How is this different from Le Mans and the WEC where the few teams with hybrid technology set-ups - particularly the Audi diesels - have dominated their gasoline-powered LMP1 rivals (what's left of them) for more than a decade now?

Why does this prototype diversity (LMP2's and enhanced DP's) suddenly need to be addressed immediately in the USCC when it (hybrid versus gas-powered LMP1's) has existed in Europe for many years now?

Certain tracks benefit certain cars. For example, it was no secret that in Grand-Am Daytona was a Porsche track and Lime Rock was a circuit that favored the Pratt & Miller Pontiacs and Camaros. That's just the way it is. It will be interesting to see which cars excel at which circuits next year.

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Old 29 Nov 2013, 19:42 (Ref:3338283)   #14
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How is this different from Le Mans and the WEC where the few teams with hybrid technology set-ups - particularly the Audi diesels - have dominated their gasoline-powered LMP1 rivals (what's left of them) for more than a decade now.

Why does this prototype diversity (LMP2's an enhanced DP's) suddenly need to be addressed immediately in the USCC when it (hybrid versus gas-powered LMP1's) apparently hasn't been a problem in Europe?

Andy Flinn
But it is a problem. Ever since the diesels came, there were complaints about the balancing of diesel and petrol.
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Old 1 Dec 2013, 01:25 (Ref:3338794)   #15
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How is this different from Le Mans and the WEC where the few teams with hybrid technology set-ups - particularly the Audi diesels - have dominated their gasoline-powered LMP1 rivals (what's left of them) for more than a decade now?

Why does this prototype diversity (LMP2's and enhanced DP's) suddenly need to be addressed immediately in the USCC when it (hybrid versus gas-powered LMP1's) has existed in Europe for many years now?

Certain tracks benefit certain cars. For example, it was no secret that in Grand-Am Daytona was a Porsche track and Lime Rock was a circuit that favored the Pratt & Miller Pontiacs and Camaros. That's just the way it is. It will be interesting to see which cars excel at which circuits next year.

Andy Flinn
I don't know why this has to be repeated: Audi doesn't win time and again because the rules favor them. They win because they're the best team with the best engineering and the best equipment. Having a car that is a world beater is REWARDED in WEC.
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Old 29 Nov 2013, 22:25 (Ref:3338351)   #16
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The two types of cars have to have the same lap times at every track.

Possibly one type will have a better chance to outrace the other (DPs on speed tracks, P2 on handling tracks) but the lap times have to be the same—otherwise, the race outcome is predetermined. Some tracks only DPs could win, some tracks, only P2. That is not racing.
In my personal opinion (and I completely respect you having a different one), I couldn't disagree more. My favourite time in any racing in the last decade was the P1 v P2 ALMS races 2006-2008, where the beauty to me was that in some tracks the Audis would win and on some the Acuras and Porsches would be able to beat them.

Personally, I don't much care for championships (which is my problem with the WEC), I watch the individual races for enjoyment and I would be delighted to have a similar situation to that previous era, where the DPs play the role of the Audis and the P2s the role of....erm, the P2s.

One powerful, robust and unbreakable, the other lightweight, nimble but fragile.

With no BoP changes, I think a DP or, failing that, a GTLM would win at Daytona, I don't trust the P2's abilities to last the distance on such a tightly packed circuit (especially if one has the combustable Mazda turbo and the others are driven by Brown and Sharp!).
This obsession with overall lap times doesn't show the bigger picture of races to me.
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Old 2 Dec 2013, 19:35 (Ref:3339416)   #17
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Rodger, there is a difference. LMP1 and LMP2 were different classes, and the ACO never intended the LMP2s to win overall, unlike, perhaps, was the case with LMP675. Also, until they ballasted them up, the LMP2s and LMP1s were pretty darn close on lap times at most tracks.

As it is, they're trying to "equalize" P2 and DP right now. They've already given the DPs more power and downforce, adding to the DP's strength, and mitigating the P2s' strengths. They also added weight to the P2s, further eroding its particular performance advantages.

In addition, without courses like Sears Point, Lime Rock, Barber, Mid Ohio, and others, the schedule is more heavily weighted towards power than it was in 2006-08, and that applies to the schedules of both series.

The Audi R10 would have slaughtered the field at Daytona, and Kansas as well. It would have a much better chance of winning on the longer Belle Isle configuration. The R10 probably would have won at VIR. It would likely be the same story at Austin. Indianapolis would be less overwhelming than those other two rovals, but I'd still expect the power car to win there. The conclusion at Road America is obvious, unless the Audis fight each other and hand the win to somebody else, like in 2007. Just the one, long "straight" a lap was enough for the R10 at Mosport in 2007; only the transmission almost dying in the leading car allowed Penske to take the win there.

The tracks where I think the P2s would theoretically stand the best chance are Sebring, Laguna Seca, and Road Atlanta. The P2s will be further aided at Monterey, because the GTs are running separately, and therefore won't be out there, potentially breaking the P2's momentum. Belle Isle and Mosport probably won't treat them too badly either.

It's harder to say just what the balance at VIR will be like. Watkins Glen is another tricky one, because there are a number of high-speed corners, but the run out of "the Ninety", through the Esses, and on to the Innerloop is uphill. So is the run from "the Toe" to "the Heel" of "the Boot". That hands a significant advantage, at least in those stretches, to the cars with horsepower. on their side.

Austin is a new-build F1 circuit, and it tends to be the case that those don't have so many high-speed corners, unless you have a lot of downforce. So, again, power and torque will help here. It's also very difficult to negotiate traffic in the technical sections at Austin, which will further hinder the Prototypes, but moreso the P2s, because they're more a momentum car than the DPs.

I like the individual races, but I also like the championship, for giving a more empirical picture of who has done the best job over the course of the season. I loved CART, because you had to be proficient on road courses, street circuits, AND a range of ovals, in order to obtain the title.

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Old 2 Dec 2013, 20:13 (Ref:3339431)   #18
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They've already given the DPs more power and downforce, adding to the DP's strength, and mitigating the P2s' strengths. They also added weight to the P2s, further eroding its particular performance advantages.
"mitigating" sounds so innocuous. 'Castrated' sounds more like it, IMO.
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Old 19 Sep 2014, 14:51 (Ref:3455057)   #19
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Old 19 Sep 2014, 15:29 (Ref:3455077)   #20
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So

spec common tub
spec brakes
spec dampers
spec radiators
spec underbody
spec ECU
spec tires (USCC (assumed since Conti-Hoosier contract continues))

How exciting... ...

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Old 19 Sep 2014, 23:21 (Ref:3455324)   #21
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So

spec common tub
spec brakes
spec dampers
spec radiators
spec underbody
spec ECU
spec tires (USCC (assumed since Conti-Hoosier contract continues))

How exciting... ...
IMSA has systematically destroyed nearly everything sportscar fans loved about our sport.
They are turning it into just another spec boring average form of motorsport/entertainment.

I'm really beginning to realize that there are so many better ways to spend my time and money.
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Old 19 Sep 2014, 23:54 (Ref:3455341)   #22
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I feel exactly like TRSpitfireFan ... If this really is the future of P2, and particularly if P2 will be the top class in North America .. I will have to seriously consider not following the sport any more.

A bunch of identical cars with "styling cue" bodywork? What a joke for the top tier of professional sports car racing. NASCAR or DTM with pointy noses and mid-engines? No thank you.

Rolex proved that Daytona Prototypes' governing philosophy didn't guarantee either close racing or low costs--and alienated most of the fans. So ... why not try that same formula again, on a larger scale?

Because it will fail on a lager scale.

The problem here is that ACO-FIA would be just as happy with TUSC either dead or dying, and WEC can afford to have lackluster spec P2 cars because the class has P1. TUSC, with no P1, will be stuck with cars that WEC considers too unimportant to really count.

ACO-FIA can mandate spec P2s because it won't hurt the overall popularity--people are there for the P1s and the GT-Pros. In that case, low-cost spec P2s make sense.

For TUSC, having a car not even as good as current P2s as the top class ... I am already looking forward to taking out the bicycle on the weekends.
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Old 20 Sep 2014, 01:02 (Ref:3455366)   #23
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Rolex proved that Daytona Prototypes' governing philosophy didn't guarantee either close racing or low costs--and alienated most of the fans. So ... why not try that same formula again, on a larger scale?

Because it will fail on a lager scale.
You know, it would be nice if future prototypes are faster than the current regulations. But alas, I feel the same way as they didn't even open up like tires, ECU, and brakes.

P2 maybe a cost-capped class, but IMSA can make it better instead of screwing it up!
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Old 23 Sep 2014, 16:56 (Ref:3456927)   #24
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So

spec common tub
spec brakes
spec dampers
spec radiators
spec underbody
spec ECU
spec tires (USCC (assumed since Conti-Hoosier contract continues))

How exciting... ...
Hmm, maybe SCCA officials have infiltrated the IMSA and are inflicting pay-backs.
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Old 23 Sep 2014, 17:05 (Ref:3456929)   #25
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Hmm, maybe SCCA officials have infiltrated the IMSA and are inflicting pay-backs.
No it's much worse, nascar people have.
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