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Old 20 Mar 2017, 15:58 (Ref:3720212)   #476
Damian Baldi
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Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
They detune it and run a slower pace to last till the halfway point lol. If you're gonna blow, at least tune it up and lead early and go out in a blaze of glory lol.
I agree with that, if they have two cars, send one of the cars to fight and blow up into flames, and let the second one detuned to reach the end.

Oreca's and Ligier are fast (if they finally can make the cars last), but I think the Nissan will be the most competitive car behind the Cadillacs when it get more developed. The Riley chassis seems plain slow, worse if it have a Mazda engine on the back.

Can't wait for the first race of the WEC to see what happens with the P2 cars.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:01 (Ref:3720213)   #477
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I agree. I think the Nissan will be formidable when it's developed a little. The only concern there is one car has ed Brown and the other has Scott sharp, so both are hampered a little in driver quality. Though sharp isn't too bad.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:02 (Ref:3720214)   #478
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I hope it can some more, at least until a pay driver drops them out of contention. (they do have one, don't they?)
In IMSA endurance races, having an AM driver isn't really much of a disadvantage. As long as they can keep up the car on the lead lap for the final caution of the race, they'll have a shot at winning provided they strap their fastest PRO driver in for that final hour. Just look at ESM or MSR last year.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:07 (Ref:3720218)   #479
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Interesting quote from Goossens about the new tyres.

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“We wanted to try and survive two stints on one set of tires to make up a bit of time, so I wasn’t leaning on the tires full maximum from the beginning because I was trying to maintain them. And the tires were actually pretty good at the end of my first stint, but then heading back out with a full fuel load I realized pretty quickly the car was a bit too heavy for that on older tires although they held up pretty well
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:11 (Ref:3720219)   #480
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Damned optimist. leave here and go where you are welcome.
I consider myself a realist, thank you very much!

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I agree that the BoP was actually Right for this race. The Cadillacs were the better cars and they showed it. And yes, the torque advantage couldn't be overcome ... but every team made its choices, and had to perfect what they chose.

Cadillac did the most testing, did the best development, and possibly picked the best of all options for power plants ... no reason to punish them.

As for the race.... I thought it was excellent. The cars look good, they sound good, they race well, and from trackside are as good as anything I have seen except maybe Sebring and Petit when Peugeot and Audi were involved.

I am sorry for everyone who didn't enjoy Sebring this your ... but I admire your work ethic. it must have taken great dedication to keep hating after 12 great hours of action.
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I feel like people are just forgetting what they saw at the start of the race. Rebellion led, the caddys weren't getting by him easily, and right behind the caddys the Nissan were lingering close by. The top 8 or so were hanging close until reliability bit them. That looks about right to me. Caddy is the most reliable. Yes, the fastest too. So what? The others showed they could compete. Pressure the caddy guys and maybe a mistake will be made. Stop screwing up every pit stop or blowing engines or having boost problems or putting amateur drivers in. You know, develop......

Limiting torque sounds like an incredibidly bad idea. Even with bop, you don't want exactly the same performance characteristics. Let caddy have a torque advantage but let turbos have a top speed advantage or something if you must. But it the big 6.2 liter torquey v8 can't have a torque advantage that it is built to have then we might as well run spec p2 engines. It's not imsas or caddys fault that the other teams and engines aren't reliable enough.

I just can't see how anyone who saw the racing in the first hour or so before they started dropping like flies could possibly think more "balancing" should be done. A professional team with a professional driver was leading. A lesser professional team with professional drivers were right behind the caddy. It was pretty Damn even.
x2 on both posts. Couldn't say it better myself, so I won't.

The Caddys are my favorite DPis, but I was pulling for Rebellion, for the record.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:12 (Ref:3720221)   #481
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Originally Posted by Damian Baldi View Post
Interesting quote from Goossens about the new tyres.
I didn't see any real issues with rubber this weekend, but it's more fun to throw stones these days. Thanks for bringing this up!
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:22 (Ref:3720224)   #482
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Having read more of the thread, and thought a little (as much as I can):

BoP was right for this race. The best cars crewed by the best teams came out on top.

As for what endurance racing is supposed to be ... this was it.

Some cars set up for the heat, and led all day (Ford.) Some cars set up for the cooler weather, and came back in the dark.

Ford could have has its 1 -2-3 and its Big Three ... but forgot that leading all day doesn’t mean crap if you don’t lead the last lap.

People who were not “excited” had best stick to sprint racing. Side-by-side sprints to the checker are Not the domain of endurance racing ... if the winner is in question into the last stint, That is a tense enduro.

Endurance racing is about lasting, adapting, overcoming, and making sure you have the best car and crew in the final two hours.

If you need an adrenaline rush, go sky-diving.

This was a really good race from trackside. I will watch it on YouTube or whatever later, but i cannot imagine it will be much less.

Not many cautions, no stupid calls, no idiotic driving (Thanks, PC) and good competition.

I have been a Bleekemolen fan for years, and he really kicked butt at Sebring.

The GT class offered a ton of good competition. I was glad to see ford not win, but more glad to see them beat on pace.

Rebellion once again disappointed me massively. Why they cannot make their car run, I cannot fathom. JDC-Miller had no problems. Pr1-Mathieson had no problems. Rebellion had pace—and massive and varied issues. Rebellion has (IMO) the strongest driver line-up on the grid, and certainly Potentially the best car. Please get it together Rebellion.

Likely we can expect a season of “Which Cadillac will win” but if they win by being better, I can deal with that.

Someone said that the turbo motors could also make the torque. I am not sure, but it does seem to me that they could trades some top end speed for some low-end pulling power and it would benefit them. Maybe the turbo teams got too excited by top-speed numbers at Daytona, and forgot how odd a course that is.

Mazda at least managed a top-five. I am not sure I can hope for much more than a few poles from Mazda this year. I don’t see a two-liter being competitive and reliable when matched against a motor three times that size.

Anyway ... my health has still not recovered, so I will not prattle on any further here.

Great race. an actual Sebring 12 Hours, IMO. Sorry for those who think otherwise.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:25 (Ref:3720225)   #483
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Originally Posted by fieldodreams79 View Post
I didn't see any real issues with rubber this weekend, but it's more fun to throw stones these days. Thanks for bringing this up!
The drivers are happy with the tyres, I brought the comment because it looks like everybody will be on the same strategy, I mean there is no gain about saving tyres to make a second stint on the same set. Basically everybody will do the same.

Tyres performed well at Sebring, just one puncture on the Mazda.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:26 (Ref:3720226)   #484
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If it's the engine that the Chevy/Caddy needs a nemesis, then there is only one... 6.1 L Chrysler/Dodge HEMI V8, Dallara chassis using the 2016/17 Dodge Charger styling cues.
I am drooling on my keyboard. Thanks.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:36 (Ref:3720229)   #485
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Poultry

Responding to: Originally Posted by canamman :
"10 hrs of rain got tedious but: You may have missed the closing stages of the 24 then.
P- 1-2 nose to tail
GTLM - 1,2,3 nose to tail
GTD - 1,2,3 (and I think 4) nose to tail

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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
A close finish does not make a good race. No, I didn't miss the 24, watched probably 20 hours of it and definitely all of the last 3 or 4. GTLM is never a point of contention. The P class is, guess you didn't catch that from my post.
Ansd here it is. Do people appreciate racing, or are they in it for the adrenaline-rush finish.

This isn't drag racing. Even the micro-race (100 minutes) at Long Beach includes a pit stop. Except for drag racing and maybe Rallycross, racing is about process more than result.

Too many modern fans (seemingly) can only appreciate the amount of action that can fit in a clip on Facebook. Racing is not that sort of sport.

A close finish doesn't make a Bad race ... and it can sort of make up for a bad race for many fans ... But even a multi-lap win doesn't ruin a good race.

People who need "nose-to-tail" finishes maybe should consider other sports.

Plenty of sports don't depend upon adrenaline-inducing risk or close finishes to generate a lot of fans, investment, and profit---think Golf, for instance.

If we constantly demand razor-thin margins of victory, before long we will be seeing one-lap, five-car shootouts ... and the "enduros" will be five laps, but no one will watch.

If the only part of a twelve-hour race that matters to you, is the final 12 seconds ... might I suggest NASCACR (well, the races Seem like they are 12 hours long.)
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 16:39 (Ref:3720232)   #486
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Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
I feel like people are just forgetting what they saw at the start of the race. Rebellion led, the caddys weren't getting by him easily, and right behind the caddys the Nissan were lingering close by. The top 8 or so were hanging close until reliability bit them. That looks about right to me. Caddy is the most reliable. Yes, the fastest too. So what? The others showed they could compete. Pressure the caddy guys and maybe a mistake will be made. Stop screwing up every pit stop or blowing engines or having boost problems or putting amateur drivers in. You know, develop......

Limiting torque sounds like an incredibidly bad idea. Even with bop, you don't want exactly the same performance characteristics. Let caddy have a torque advantage but let turbos have a top speed advantage or something if you must. But it the big 6.2 liter torquey v8 can't have a torque advantage that it is built to have then we might as well run spec p2 engines. It's not imsas or caddys fault that the other teams and engines aren't reliable enough.

I just can't see how anyone who saw the racing in the first hour or so before they started dropping like flies could possibly think more "balancing" should be done. A professional team with a professional driver was leading. A lesser professional team with professional drivers were right behind the caddy. It was pretty Damn even.
My apologies for not having read the whole thread before responding.

RWill nails it.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 17:03 (Ref:3720236)   #487
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Not that they were given the opportunity, but we should really thank imsa for allowing an endurance race to happen. No late caution that was questionable, no attempt to bunch the field up arbitrarily throughout the race. While NASCAR is incorporating segment finishes and cautions, they are allowing cars to take time to get going before throwing cautions, and allowed long green flag runs to let the race play out. Credit where it's due, excessive or unnecessary cautions haven't been an issue this year.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 18:29 (Ref:3720257)   #488
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Not that they were given the opportunity, but we should really thank imsa for allowing an endurance race to happen. No late caution that was questionable, no attempt to bunch the field up arbitrarily throughout the race. While NASCAR is incorporating segment finishes and cautions, they are allowing cars to take time to get going before throwing cautions, and allowed long green flag runs to let the race play out. Credit where it's due, excessive or unnecessary cautions haven't been an issue this year.
+1, really enjoyed the long green flag runs. Reminded me of being track side years back and watching patterns develop.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 20:23 (Ref:3720279)   #489
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The race was good, next up is long beach right?
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 20:26 (Ref:3720280)   #490
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 22:23 (Ref:3720296)   #491
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Responding to: Originally Posted by canamman :
"10 hrs of rain got tedious but: You may have missed the closing stages of the 24 then.
P- 1-2 nose to tail
GTLM - 1,2,3 nose to tail
GTD - 1,2,3 (and I think 4) nose to tail

Ansd here it is. Do people appreciate racing, or are they in it for the adrenaline-rush finish.

This isn't drag racing. Even the micro-race (100 minutes) at Long Beach includes a pit stop. Except for drag racing and maybe Rallycross, racing is about process more than result.

Too many modern fans (seemingly) can only appreciate the amount of action that can fit in a clip on Facebook. Racing is not that sort of sport.

A close finish doesn't make a Bad race ... and it can sort of make up for a bad race for many fans ... But even a multi-lap win doesn't ruin a good race.

People who need "nose-to-tail" finishes maybe should consider other sports.

Plenty of sports don't depend upon adrenaline-inducing risk or close finishes to generate a lot of fans, investment, and profit---think Golf, for instance.

If we constantly demand razor-thin margins of victory, before long we will be seeing one-lap, five-car shootouts ... and the "enduros" will be five laps, but no one will watch.

If the only part of a twelve-hour race that matters to you, is the final 12 seconds ... might I suggest NASCACR (well, the races Seem like they are 12 hours long.)
Since you are directly calling me out I will respond by saying this is
absolutely the most absurd post I have ever read. "Should consider other sports"? Well that's not gonna happen after going to races for 50 years.
By the way, NASCACR? Oh , I get it , an under handed jab at NASCAR.
Just another spelling error. Trying to assign a guilt trip for enjoying close finishes at the races I attend or watch? Laughable. BTW, I thought the Sebring race was ok. I'd give it a 7.5 out of 10. Hate to think of the guilt
you lob on cycle stage racing. 6 hrs on a flat stage to all come down
to inches at the finish. Fans who like that (like me) should be sooo
ashamed. Oh but wait, you report on that sport, shame!
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 22:45 (Ref:3720299)   #492
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Time out everyone....

Methinks misunderstanding is afoot. (I'm glad I'm on the outside of this one for a change )

Nonetheless, I still say get rid of BoPing and all other shennanigans to "equalize" the competition and I'll continue to wai for another REAL finish like Le Mans '69.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 23:15 (Ref:3720302)   #493
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I was basically commenting on the first sentence of your prior comment.
There is so much eschew with this comment above, I think I'll pass and move on.
I don't think it's hard to understand. I was saying dpi/prototype hasn't been good racing this year unless you are a Cadillac fan and don't mind that no one else has challenged. GTLM and GTD are not the point. The 'race' I was referring to was the prototype class. You don't have to agree with my opinion, even if you do feel the same about the head of the field.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 23:22 (Ref:3720304)   #494
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Nonetheless, I still say get rid of BoPing and all other shennanigans to "equalize" the competition and I'll continue to wai for another REAL finish like Le Mans '69.
Set minimum/maximum dimensions, minimum weight, and maximum power with random dyno tests to make sure everyone is at power. Let everything else fall as it does.
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 00:08 (Ref:3720315)   #495
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I don't think it's hard to understand. I was saying dpi/prototype hasn't been good racing this year unless you are a Cadillac fan and don't mind that no one else has challenged. GTLM and GTD are not the point. The 'race' I was referring to was the prototype class. You don't have to agree with my opinion, even if you do feel the same about the head of the field.
Gotcha. I am starting to understand your position. I guess you are more
of the P2 fan. Cadi's have set the bar high and will probably
continued to be tuned down by the sanction, but I will be dadgummed if I am
going to sit here and have a poster tell me to "consider another sport".
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 00:39 (Ref:3720322)   #496
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I don't think it's hard to understand. I was saying dpi/prototype hasn't been good racing this year unless you are a Cadillac fan and don't mind that no one else has challenged. GTLM and GTD are not the point. The 'race' I was referring to was the prototype class. You don't have to agree with my opinion, even if you do feel the same about the head of the field.
Like Dyson and Field verses Audi or many of the other ALMS days? Those were fun too even after the AERs / MGs blew up or Field crashed out/used his car up. And would your opinion be the same if it was someone else other than Caddy the quickest? Say ESM dominated the first two events. Would that be good racing?
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 01:28 (Ref:3720326)   #497
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Originally Posted by canamman View Post
Gotcha. I am starting to understand your position. I guess you are more
of the P2 fan. Cadi's have set the bar high and will probably
continued to be tuned down by the sanction, but I will be dadgummed if I am
going to sit here and have a poster tell me to "consider another sport".
I don't like p2's, I like p1's
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Originally Posted by fieldodreams79 View Post
Like Dyson and Field verses Audi or many of the other ALMS days? Those were fun too even after the AERs / MGs blew up or Field crashed out/used his car up. And would your opinion be the same if it was someone else other than Caddy the quickest? Say ESM dominated the first two events. Would that be good racing?
No, good racing in a bop class is everyone in contention like GTD and GTE. Prototype is currently (the past two races) not fun to watch because it's a foregone conclusion a Cadillac will win. It's not just that, but the others don't even last long enough for satisfaction. I don't care if Caddy wins or ESM or Mazda or any lmp2, I want to see close competition. That's what these strict rules are there for. It's a shame the others don't have their cars together because they looked nearly equal between a few car types on speed.
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 02:53 (Ref:3720334)   #498
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
I don't like p2's, I like p1's


No, good racing in a bop class is everyone in contention like GTD and GTE. Prototype is currently (the past two races) not fun to watch because it's a foregone conclusion a Cadillac will win. It's not just that, but the others don't even last long enough for satisfaction. I don't care if Caddy wins or ESM or Mazda or any lmp2, I want to see close competition. That's what these strict rules are there for. It's a shame the others don't have their cars together because they looked nearly equal between a few car types on speed.
This sounds exactly like a well regulated class as far as bop goes. Multiple different cars can have a chance, but there's room for that sporting quality..... development.....
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 03:03 (Ref:3720336)   #499
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
No, good racing in a bop class is everyone in contention like GTD and GTE. Prototype is currently (the past two races) not fun to watch because it's a foregone conclusion a Cadillac will win. It's not just that, but the others don't even last long enough for satisfaction. I don't care if Caddy wins or ESM or Mazda or any lmp2, I want to see close competition. That's what these strict rules are there for. It's a shame the others don't have their cars together because they looked nearly equal between a few car types on speed.
BoP got the cars pretty damn close on pace and a couple non Caddys proved to be quicker than the Caddys. Then they broke. Perhaps when one car loses its brakes or another loses boost, everyone must stop and fix something to even it out.

And you said it. Shame teams don't have their cars sorted and things end up with cars a handful of laps down. Strange, I recall "racing" like this year's ago....

I look at the winning makes on the front stretch structure every time I go to Sebring. Porsche dominated the 80s, Nissan the early 90s and Audi in the 2000s. Must have been some bad racing, in your opinion.

Not sure what would satisfy you but that's okay. I enjoyed the hell out of it.

Edit: if close competition is all you desire, you loved Grand Am. Got that every race. I took it for what it was worth and found some enjoyment from it.

Now I need to got watch the Gatornationals final round, but only Pro Stock, because that gives me a close race every time. Nitro is for the birds.

Last edited by fieldodreams79; 21 Mar 2017 at 03:20.
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 03:25 (Ref:3720341)   #500
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My first year at Sebring in 2006 Audi finished 1st overall, the fields in a p2 finished 2nd overall and a gt1 corvette finished 3rd overall, all laps off each other. I thought there was some great racing that race. Guess I was wrong......

Oh how quickly things change. Last few years it was "these bogus late race cautions to manufacture a close finish are bs. Let them race!" Now they are, and it's "this isn't good racing. Where's the photo finish?" Lets make up our mind here.....
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