Palmer

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

im not sure what they expect from their drivers...maybe for them to be scapegoats?

Regular cash deposits?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Regular cash deposits?

What?!

You mean Renault aren't putting as much in as we thought they were?!!

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Minardi was a no-pressure backmarker team, which built aerodynamically safe cars, where Alonso could ease himself into the role away from the spotlight.

That's not the conditions that prevail in the Renault works team 2016, that's for sure. Those guys wanna and expect to be winners tomorrow. Now that's real pressure.

That's complete hogwash. Renault are in the exact same position as Minardi was.
Renault have just a little bit more money to throw at it, but the expectations, and the cars performance, are virtually the same.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

That's complete hogwash. Renault are in the exact same position as Minardi was.
Renault have just a little bit more money to throw at it, but the expectations, and the cars performance, are virtually the same.

Nope.

Minardi understood that they are never going to be world champions. Renault are high powered works outfit that aim to win.

This is a point so obvious I shouldn't need to point it out.

[ASCII Man]

What they want to be, is far from what they are now.
It's ludicrous to expect things that simply aren't possible with a bad car and drivers.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

What they want to be, is far from what they are now.
It's ludicrous to expect things that simply aren't possible with a bad car and drivers.

Are they stuck with the same car for ever n' ever n' ever? Have they no capacity to ever improve? I don't think so.

Renault is a big company, and a national team in certain senses with a spotlight focused on them. Renault have an expectation to win within a medium term timeframe and if they don't do that the Renault F1 project will have failed and a major global manufacturer will have lost face. Minardi was a minnows micro outfit with entirely different pressures and concerns and expectations; a team in the shadow of Ferrari and the big team ran by Briatore. Alonso could hone his craft outside of the spotlight in his environment in a way that isn't the case with Palmer in his.

[chillibowl]

years ago Webber had a pretty stunning debut for Minardi...Renault should have signed him then!

seriously though, at the half way point, Renault look to have taken a big step backwards compared to Lotus' performance last year...thats surprising imo.

sure with the takeover happening so late, leading to a short lead time in getting the 2016 car ready etc. but by now one would have expected to see some sort of improvement. and if any of RB's gain stem from engine improvements then none of that magic has been realized by Renault.

thats on the drivers no?

for sure harsh but its looking like the best headline Renault will get this year is when they announce a quality signing. Button keeps saying he has options for next year...surely he should be at the top any list Renault have.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

years ago Webber had a pretty stunning debut for Minardi...Renault should have signed him then!

POST OF THE YEAR....

[Razzzor]

So which driver lineup would you want in your team for 2017 (assuming your not the owner of Williams or Renault)...
Massa and Bottas
Magnussen and Palmer
Grosjean and Guiterrez

I suppose you'd put all your money on Grosjean and not worry about Guiterrez being the slow #2, in hopes that Grosjean will do what he did in Rnds 1+2 this year. But if you want constructors points...

[Paradise City]

For me, how good Palmer is can't be substantiated this year because 1. his teammate is relatively inexperienced as well 2. the car is poor.

So where the lousy car begins and the unpolished driver ends isn't clear and there's no experienced man to test Palmer with.

Odds on, he'll get bundled out for '17. Which I think would be an injustice in broader F1 terms but the kind of injustice that is by no means unknown in F1. As for Renault, they'll need at least guy who is experienced to help them develop that car. I don't see Magnussen being the best man to lead that process.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

So which driver lineup would you want in your team for 2017 (assuming your not the owner of Williams or Renault)...
Massa and Bottas
Magnussen and Palmer
Grosjean and Guiterrez

I suppose you'd put all your money on Grosjean and not worry about Guiterrez being the slow #2, in hopes that Grosjean will do what he did in Rnds 1+2 this year. But if you want constructors points...

Mr Alonso & Mr Piquet Jr...

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

For me, how good Palmer is can't be substantiated this year because 1. his teammate is relatively inexperienced as well 2. the car is poor. en he sees one.

So where the lousy car begins and the unpolished driver ends isn't clear and there's no experienced man to test Palmer with.

So much naive opinion on this thread. It will be very clear to the team. Vasseur knows a driver (or not) when he sees one. I think he must be in danger of being replaced this year.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by peebee2

So much naive opinion on this thread. It will be very clear to the team. Vasseur knows a driver (or not) when he sees one.

It might not be clear to the team. Let's apply a bit of nuance to this and reign in our inner-autist shall we? JP is a rookie and his potential isn't conclusive because he is as yet unseasoned. Team bosses aren't gods and even F1 titans such as Dennis and Williams have screwed up in driver selection from time to time. To think otherwise is naive. World championship drivers have had bad years early on in their careerists only to win later on, Button being an excellent example of this. So maybe that potential to be competitive is locked in there with Palmer.

[BSchneiderFan]

If Palmer does lose his seat, it's going to raise fresh questions about the value of being GP2 champion. Maybe Vandoorne will go to McLaren and lay those to rest; but I worry.

[Akrapovic]

I've long said that the standard required now days is far too high. Drivers are coming in younger and younger, often starting at midfield to front end teams as rookies, with a lot less experience, and told to do well in year 1 of their F1 career is basically over. We're only giving drivers half a year before they're judged, discarded and expected to go fill a seat in Formula E, IndyCar or pay for an LMP2 drive. It's pretty bad really, and the fans are guilty of it just as much as the teams.

What happened to maturing as your career developes? Rather than getting 6 races, told you're not any good, and then dumped for the next youngest driver, who'll also get dropped after he's not World Champion by the end of qualifying at Albert Park.

[chillibowl]

a high standard isnt a bad thing though is it? the quality on the grid now days cannot be denied imo.

but still im not convinced it hasnt always been this way... although i would agree that the crucible that is the RB drivers program makes it look a lot more cut throat recently.

Mags is in his second year and Palmer with 4 seasons of GP2 and 10 F1 races under his belt...i feel like its hard to argue we havent seen enough of them to start forming our own conclusions.

quality drivers no doubt, but in all honesty (and as qualified as any of us are as armchair fans), does either driver look to be a potential superstar in the making?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

a high standard isnt a bad thing though is it? the quality on the grid now days cannot be denied imo.

but still im not convinced it hasnt always been this way... although i would agree that the crucible that is the RB drivers program makes it look a lot more cut throat recently.

Mags is in his second year and Palmer with 4 seasons of GP2 and 10 F1 races under his belt...i feel like its hard to argue we havent seen enough of them to start forming our own conclusions.

quality drivers no doubt, but in all honesty (and as qualified as any of us are as armchair fans), does either driver look to be a potential superstar in the making?

A high standard is a bad thing if drivers get only half a season to prove themselves. It ruins careers which could blossom and serves as nothing but a revolving door of young drivers.

Mags may be in his second year, but he almost didn't get a second year did he? In his rookie year he was paired up against a World Champion, didn't beat him and was immediately dropped. You can hardly argue he got a fair crack at it? Especially cruel given the World Champion he was paired against had several shocking years before he finally got there.

Your final sentence there is what I mean. Does either driver looking to be a potential superstar? And we're to judge Palmer on that after 10 races? And if he doesn't look like he'll be a 3 time world champion he should be dropped or something?

It hasn't always been like this. Even if you go back to the 90s, drivers like Brundle, Herbert, Coulthard never looked like superstars either. They looked good, and maybe if the stars aligned they could've been world champions, but they're certainly no legends. Yet they stuck around for decades. Now they get 10 races and we've decided career over - time to go find an IndyCar drive? Times have most certainly changed.

[chillibowl]

i see your point and the drivers you mention were were very good drivers who became journeymen (who may have won a title if they were more fortunate even) but certainly you would agree that works teams with 300mil plus budgets isnt necessarily the best setting for a young driver to mature in.

i suppose i should add that perhaps i have a bias against second generation F1 drivers and probably have a built in belief that they should have a higher standard to live up to.

this is a subset of drivers who have had more chances then most to begin with.

[cds_uk]

I have to say, like the majority on here i think Jolyon will lose the seat, if that is the case then hopefully it will be at the end of the year, but in his defence i think he is doing a decent job, Monaco apart, only once has he been trounced by Magnussen in qualifying, China, and that was when the car had a damaged floor, every other race he has been within 2/10ths, the last two gp within 1/100th. As long as renault continue to develop the car, which it looks like they will, then Haas and maybe Toro Rosso could be within reach, it would be nice to see him scrapping in the midfield rather than with the Saubers and Manors, and then judge him at the end of the year.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i see your point and the drivers you mention were were very good drivers who became journeymen (who may have won a title if they were more fortunate even) but certainly you would agree that works teams with 300mil plus budgets isnt necessarily the best setting for a young driver to mature in.

i suppose i should add that perhaps i have a bias against second generation F1 drivers and probably have a built in belief that they should have a higher standard to live up to.

this is a subset of drivers who have had more chances then most to begin with.

I completely agree that works teams are not the best place for young drivers to mature in. But now most of the grid is a works team. So you have Force India, Haas, Manor, Sauber and Williams as possible slots, which is 5. Go back to 1995 and there was literally one works team, and that was Ferrari. That left 12 teams that drivers could pick from. So over double the amount of available drives.

Not only is the standards higher, but they have less slots to do it in.

[FIRE]

It makes no sense to replace Palmer this season.

[BSchneiderFan]

I agree.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I completely agree that works teams are not the best place for young drivers to mature in. But now most of the grid is a works team. So you have Force India, Haas, Manor, Sauber and Williams as possible slots, which is 5. Go back to 1995 and there was literally one works team, and that was Ferrari. That left 12 teams that drivers could pick from. So over double the amount of available drives.

Not only is the standards higher, but they have less slots to do it in.

in fairness, if you are excluding Mclaren from the works list in 1995 then there is a similar argument to made for excluding them from the 2016 list. plus you have excluded the 2 RB teams. so thats 7 (or 8) teams vs 11 (or 12) teams.

still a difference in non works slots, i agree, but not so large that it justifies there needing to be a lower standard imo.

my personal feeling is that there is far far more talent on todays grid then there was in 1995. is that a function of the manu era or the vast improvements in technology and knowledge?

todays teams (even the small ones) have far more metrics with which to assess a drivers current and future abilities and that selection process starts well before they ever sit in an F1 car. so its hard for me to accept (particularly in the case of mags and palmer) that these two havent been given enough opportunity.

perhaps its a more clinical (more heartless) approach but the results cannot be denied...the talent pool is much greater now then it was in 1995. it only follows that it should be more competitive not less.

Originally Posted by FIRE

It makes no sense to replace Palmer this season.

that entirely depends on who the potential replacements are no?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

that entirely depends on who the potential replacements are no?

IMO with this car it will make not much difference.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in fairness, if you are excluding Mclaren from the works list in 1995 then there is a similar argument to made for excluding them from the 2016 list. plus you have excluded the 2 RB teams. so thats 7 (or 8) teams vs 11 (or 12) teams.

Well McLaren in 1995 was barely a works team. First year of the Mercedes engines and not quite the 97 onward status. McLaren now is the only Honda car. But I see your point indeed.

However we certainly have to count Red Bull as a works teams. Whether the external company produces vehicles, soft drinks or sofas doesn't really matter. It's most certainly a works effort in every way that counts. McLaren are probably one of the worst offenders for how young drivers are treated too (Red Bull aren't far off either). Countless drivers snapped up under contract and dumped into DTM, test driver roles, and even the odd one shipped out to CART as it was at the time.