Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 30 Oct 2017, 15:39 (Ref:3777522)   #101
Mekola
Veteran
 
Mekola's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Kiribati
Atlantis
Posts: 6,635
Mekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
One of the things that deluded me about these penalties, is that Schumi was deprived of what could be his last ever victory. Had he started from pole in 2012 Monaco GP... Words are not enough.
Mekola is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Oct 2017, 17:07 (Ref:3777548)   #102
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekola View Post
One of the things that deluded me about these penalties, is that Schumi was deprived of what could be his last ever victory. Had he started from pole in 2012 Monaco GP... Words are not enough.
You seem to forget his car broke down during the race, making the penalty irrelevant
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 31 Oct 2017, 23:57 (Ref:3777854)   #103
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post
There seem to be a lot of people suggesting loss of constructor points instead of grid penalties. But how will it look when McLaren finish the season on -200 points, beaten by some other team that has only -50?
Works perfectly well on QI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfaholic View Post
And in the latest on stupid penalties, Stroll qualified 17th, gets a 3 place grid penalty for impeding Grosjean but starts 16th thanks to engine penaties elsewhere
I believe in the next race Alonso will be starting in Spa 2008. With the curious twist that as he's in a 2017 car he could well now win the World Championship for that year meaning that by the end of the season Lewis will be back on 3 titles.

Well, it's only marginally dafter than what's actually happening.
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 1 Nov 2017, 19:35 (Ref:3778038)   #104
Alfaholic
Veteran
 
Alfaholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
England
Felixstowe
Posts: 950
Alfaholic should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAlfaholic should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
There's a piece on Pitpass where they've added up the grid penalties for 2017 so far and for power unit related penalties (not driver infringements) the totals are...

Mercedes power units - 25 places (3 teams)
Ferrari power units - 60 places (3 teams)
Renault power units - 290 places (3 teams)
Honda power units - 390 places (1 team!)

For comparison, there's only 400 grid places over the whole 2017 championship.
Alfaholic is offline  
__________________
I haven't got a life, just an anorak.
Quote
Old 1 Nov 2017, 20:00 (Ref:3778044)   #105
Richard C
Veteran
 
Richard C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,803
Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!
To be honest, I don't get what the fuss is about. Other than... the media blows it up with the fans. It's just a number. No matter how many penalties you get you can go no farther back than... the back of the grid.

Richard
Richard C is offline  
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one."
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 06:01 (Ref:3778128)   #106
Skam85
Veteran
 
Skam85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Wherever the next race is
Posts: 2,812
Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!
Why not just one or two place grid penalties per element change over the limit, with the extra condition that the team must complete qualifying as normal, otherwise they automatically start from the pit lane.

The added penalty for PU element changes, is that the car must also start the race on the compound they set their final grid position in.

This ensures 1) grid penalties aren't utterly ridiculous and are capped to less than the actual grid size, 2) qualifying still occurs in its entirety, 3) the extra 'penalty' of less Sunday flexibility on strategy.
Skam85 is offline  
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud.
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 08:48 (Ref:3778135)   #107
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfaholic View Post
There's a piece on Pitpass where they've added up the grid penalties for 2017 so far and for power unit related penalties (not driver infringements) the totals are...

Mercedes power units - 25 places (3 teams)
Ferrari power units - 60 places (3 teams)
Renault power units - 290 places (3 teams)
Honda power units - 390 places (1 team!)

For comparison, there's only 400 grid places over the whole 2017 championship.
Whether drivers pick up 25, 55 or even 1,000 place grid penalties is irrelevant. What really matters is how many places they lose compared to their qualifying position.

I also question the validity of the source data - at which events did Ferrari and Mercedes powered cars pick up so many grid penalties???

In that case, the positions lost due to PU changes are as follows:


Honda (69 total)
Vandoorne 28
Button 11
Alonso 30

Renault (62 total)
Kvyat 2
Verstappen 21
Ricciardo 22
Hulkenberg 2
Palmer 4
Sainz Jr 4
Hulkenberg 3
Hartley 5
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 11:28 (Ref:3778154)   #108
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
I wonder if that means Honda were hampered because they were running a sole engine program unlike others?
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 12:52 (Ref:3778166)   #109
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 10,912
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Whether drivers pick up 25, 55 or even 1,000 place grid penalties is irrelevant. What really matters is how many places they lose compared to their qualifying position.

I also question the validity of the source data - at which events did Ferrari and Mercedes powered cars pick up so many grid penalties???

In that case, the positions lost due to PU changes are as follows:


Honda (69 total)
Vandoorne 28
Button 11
Alonso 30

Renault (62 total)
Kvyat 2
Verstappen 21
Ricciardo 22
Hulkenberg 2
Palmer 4
Sainz Jr 4
Hulkenberg 3
Hartley 5
In a sporting sense, all that matter is the place they lose. But that's just based on pure luck of where the car qualifies and how many others get penalties. If there were more cars, the penalty would become much more severe. You should judge the system on what it is intending to do, rather than the outcome. You could in theory give the entire grid a 5 place penalty, so nobody loses a slot, and then say the system is worthless because it had no effect, when in reality it just isn't suited to the purpose it was intended. There are also situations where a penalised car moves forward, which means it could be read that the engine is so super reliable that it never failed - which isn't the case.

These stats should be about the average per car or driver, not the total number as it makes the Honda look closer to the Renault than it actually is. These are the averages, based purely on the numbers posted here

Positions penalised
Mercedes - 6 per driver
Ferrari - 10 per driver
Renault - 48 per driver
Honda - 195 per driver

Actual slots lost
Renault - 8 per driver
Honda - 23 per driver
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 12:53 (Ref:3778167)   #110
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 10,912
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
I wonder if that means Honda were hampered because they were running a sole engine program unlike others?
You'll gather less data and test less new parts, certainly. So it really depends on what the problem is. Do they have a lack of data? Do they know what the issue is? Do they know how to potentially fix it? Is it a manufacturing problem, and they have all the data, they just can't actually produce the fix? Lab and real world testing are very different. I guess only Honda know the answer to that.
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 13:35 (Ref:3778180)   #111
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skam85 View Post
Why not just one or two place grid penalties per element change over the limit, with the extra condition that the team must complete qualifying as normal, otherwise they automatically start from the pit lane.

The added penalty for PU element changes, is that the car must also start the race on the compound they set their final grid position in.

This ensures 1) grid penalties aren't utterly ridiculous and are capped to less than the actual grid size, 2) qualifying still occurs in its entirety, 3) the extra 'penalty' of less Sunday flexibility on strategy.
Just do it on time in that case. Penalty = pit lane start, with a delay of an appropriate number of seconds.
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 14:04 (Ref:3778188)   #112
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
These are the averages, based purely on the numbers posted here

Positions penalised
Mercedes - 6 per driver
Which race(s) did Mercedes-powered drivers receive the penalties indicated?

The original PitPass article refers to 25 places for Mercedes??
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 14:50 (Ref:3778196)   #113
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 10,912
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Which race(s) did Mercedes-powered drivers receive the penalties indicated?

The original PitPass article refers to 25 places for Mercedes??
No idea, as I said I only converted the stats posted here into more relevant numbers. If someone finds more accurate stats then it's pretty easy to work out the average per car.

Totals don't mean anything because Renault supply 3 times more engines than Honda. So you need an average. It's also unfair to compare actual slots lost rather than penalised if you're wanting a picture of reliability. Mercedes cars tend to be further forward on the grid, so a 5 place drop will always be a 5 place drop. But a Honda is usually near the back, so a 25 place drop for multiple failures could turn out to only be 4 places lost. If you use the actual slots lost, this makes the Honda look more reliable than the Mercedes, when we know that isn't the case. That's why you have to compare the number penalised, because a team may not be able to serve the penalty in full. It also suggests that the engine rules were written without taking into account that there could be such reliability issues, which is a bit short sighted!

I actually mashed my calculator wrongly too. It's 4 for Mercedes, not 6. Pit pass claims 25 places across 3 teams, or 6 cars. 25/6 cars is 4.16, rounded to 4. So according to PitPass stats, Mercedes cars have lost approx 4 places on the grid each throughout the year.
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 15:33 (Ref:3778204)   #114
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
No idea, as I said I only converted the stats posted here into more relevant numbers. If someone finds more accurate stats then it's pretty easy to work out the average per car.

Totals don't mean anything because Renault supply 3 times more engines than Honda. So you need an average. It's also unfair to compare actual slots lost rather than penalised if you're wanting a picture of reliability. Mercedes cars tend to be further forward on the grid, so a 5 place drop will always be a 5 place drop. But a Honda is usually near the back, so a 25 place drop for multiple failures could turn out to only be 4 places lost. If you use the actual slots lost, this makes the Honda look more reliable than the Mercedes, when we know that isn't the case. That's why you have to compare the number penalised, because a team may not be able to serve the penalty in full. It also suggests that the engine rules were written without taking into account that there could be such reliability issues, which is a bit short sighted!

I actually mashed my calculator wrongly too. It's 4 for Mercedes, not 6. Pit pass claims 25 places across 3 teams, or 6 cars. 25/6 cars is 4.16, rounded to 4. So according to PitPass stats, Mercedes cars have lost approx 4 places on the grid each throughout the year.
I agree that an average per car/driver would be a better indication of what is going on - but there also a number of other factors at play that could also be a muddying of the waters.

Tactical changes - we see teams opt to take the penalties at a certain time, in an attempt to gain the least hurt.

Bulk changes - if a team know that they are going to take a penalty, and that they are likely to be at the back, then they may also opt for multiple elements simultaneously just to refresh. Do we know if the Hondas were further up the front, that they would have still made the multi-element changes?

Performance stress - if a certain car is battling with a lot of traffic, or attempting to make up positions, could they be pushing their engine harder than another car in clearer air or not racing a rival?

External factors - some damage to engines could be as a result of contact or driver style?

For example:
At the US GP, Vandoorne took a 30-place PU penalty, Verstappen a 15-place. I would imagine the RBR thinking was that Verstappen will still be able to get into the points from mid-low pack, but Vandoorne was just taking a whole refresh of all elements.

Was Vettel's engine change at Malaysia attributable to damage at Singapore?

Was Ricciardo's engine failure in Mexico caused by excessive heat from following cars? Possibly stress from attempting to move through the pack?


My original point was that the volume of penalties received is meaningless without the context. Whether that is the impact, contributory factors or decision making behind PU changes - all of these should be known before the data can be interpreted correctly.
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 15:50 (Ref:3778207)   #115
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
Yes, at least a time penalty would mean qualifying would still mean something to those who have penalties
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 2 Nov 2017, 16:20 (Ref:3778213)   #116
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 10,912
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Bulk changes and tactical changes are why the penalised number should be analysed rather than the positions lost. The bulk and tactical changes are done at a time to minimise the number of actual positions lost. If you do them in one chunk, you get to take a 20 place grid drop, but only drop 15, which is better than the 5 drop over 4 races.

Other external factors are impossible to measure. Yes you could make a good discussion out of argument damage, because accidents are relatively rare occurrences. But things like stress due to performance and following other cars should balance out because each manufacturer besides Honda has 6 cars. So unless we have a strange situation where all the Mercedes runners cruise about all year, and all the Renault runners rag the engines all year, you have to assume that balances relatively correctly.

Good point about Honda swapping parts when it isn't needed. That's why they're an outlier in it all. But it's also a good example of why you need to take the numbers penalised rather than actual positions lost. If (for example) Vandoorne qualified 18th, and then swapped so many parts that he got a 50 place drop, he still only loses 2 places. A Ferrari could then swap 1 part, drop 5 spots, and it looks worse for the Ferrari.

The actual penalised spaces is a bit lost without context, but I do think that if we're just talking pure statistics, then it's much much more accurate than actual grid positions lost. The cars at the front have each penalty weighted more than the cars at the back in that situation. In an extreme case, if Manor were still here, qualifying at the back, they could blow up engines every race and never take a grid drop (or each car could only take a maximum of 1).

I completely agree that no matter how it's looked at, it isn't as clear as the stats say. But even if you twist the stats the best they can be in Hondas favour, they still come out comfortably bottom. That says a lot that you can't even manipulate the situation into making Honda decent.

Edit: Someone earlier suggested penalising constructors points for engine failures. But should Sauber lose a valuable point because a Ferrari engine they purchased failed? That also doesn't seem fair.
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Rules] Hamilton 5 Place Penalty? Peter Mallett Formula One 55 17 Apr 2012 00:49
10 place penalty for Hamilton and Rosberg alonso11 Formula One 299 24 Jun 2008 02:06
Five place penalty for Kovalainen Down F0rce Formula One 107 23 Jun 2008 16:42
Vettel gets 5 place penalty Marbot Formula One 13 19 May 2008 20:11
Massa first to be hit with '10 place penalty' following De la Rosa Incident Damon Formula One 3 17 Sep 2002 11:41


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.