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Old 4 Jun 2011, 13:48 (Ref:2891035)   #101
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Another argument for only manufacturers titles is that it gives room to just one winner. If a Peugeot driver wins the drivers title and Audi the manufacturers title, both could claim to be world champions. I don't like that.

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Hopefully Honda, Toyota, and/or Nissan will catch Le Mans fever and demand a Japan race.
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Old 4 Jun 2011, 14:07 (Ref:2891044)   #102
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The GT World Champsionship will be Ratel's 1 hour races, just with 2009 GT2s and GT3s running alongside the current cars on an equalised basis.

The WEC is the current ILMC with the winner of the GT class winning the World Endurance GT Championship.
ah I see, that's the way it should be IMO

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Old 4 Jun 2011, 14:33 (Ref:2891056)   #103
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"The Automobile Club de l’Ouest hereby agrees to integrate the Le Mans 24 Hours into the calendar, but the event remains the exclusive property of the ACO and is not a participant in this agreement."

For me that sounds that the ACO will integrate the LM24 into WEC calendar, but the event will not be a part of the championship.
"Property". That means trademarks and stuff, right?

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Old 4 Jun 2011, 15:40 (Ref:2891078)   #104
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"The Automobile Club de l’Ouest hereby agrees to integrate the Le Mans 24 Hours into the calendar, but the event remains the exclusive property of the ACO and is not a participant in this agreement."

For me that sounds that the ACO will integrate the LM24 into WEC calendar, but the event will not be a part of the championship.
The ACO retains control and rights for Le Mans, they will organise and promote the other events.

The ACO are running the WEC on behalf of the FIA, in the old days it was centrally controlled from the FIA, including commercial rights, something the EU put a stop to.
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Old 4 Jun 2011, 17:25 (Ref:2891122)   #105
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Bigger engines allowed in 09 wasnt it? Thats my only thought on it, a 2009 spec Corvette might be faster than todays....
Perhaps, but the only available chassis (002) has a 5.5 liter. Going back to destroked LS7 -among other things- would require significant modifications. Not that anyone would want to invest in Ratel's whacko idea anyway
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Old 4 Jun 2011, 20:10 (Ref:2891203)   #106
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At first I did wonder why they didn't use back the WSC name, to restore some continuity with the past, but thinking twice about it, I'm relieved they choose WEC instead, because a "World Endurance Championship" is explicitly commited to run long races. They're not going to make Grand Prix-like races again.

I believe every parts involved were agreeing on that point, because the ACO had to ensure the championship will stay close to the roots of Le Mans racing, and the FIA surely doesn't want prototypes to step in F1's domain too.

But now that it is officialy a World Championship, it becomes critical that it steps on each continent of the Earth. Obviously it has to keep the big ones (LM24, Sebring12, and PLM), and it would be nice to keep classics such as Spa, Monza, Nurburgring or Silverstone (maybe with a rotation system), and have at least one race in Japan (Suzuka), but then it should absolutely include one South American race (Sao Paulo), one African (Kyalami) and one Australian (Adelaide?) too.

So IMHO the calandar soon has to extend to at least 10 races a season, which will be hard cost wise, as we just stated it will all be 1000km races minimum...
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Old 4 Jun 2011, 20:37 (Ref:2891212)   #107
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At first I did wonder why they didn't use back the WSC name, to restore some continuity with the past
Continuity and continuity...
1953-1961 - World Sportscar Championship
1962-1971 - confusing with all the different divisions and classes; International Championship for GT Manufacturers, International Manufacturers Championship, International Sports Car Championship, International Championship for Makes
1972-1975 - World Championship for Makes
1976-1977 - Championship for Makes / World Sports Car Championship
1978-1980 - World Championship for Makes
1981 - World Championship for Drivers and Makes
1982-1985 - FIA World Endurance Championship
1985-1990 - FIA World Sports-Prototype Championship
1991-1992 - FIA Sportscar World Championship
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Old 4 Jun 2011, 21:43 (Ref:2891234)   #108
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At first I did wonder why they didn't use back the WSC name, to restore some continuity with the past, but thinking twice about it, I'm relieved they choose WEC instead, because a "World Endurance Championship" is explicitly commited to run long races. They're not going to make Grand Prix-like races again.

I believe every parts involved were agreeing on that point, because the ACO had to ensure the championship will stay close to the roots of Le Mans racing, and the FIA surely doesn't want prototypes to step in F1's domain too.

But now that it is officialy a World Championship, it becomes critical that it steps on each continent of the Earth. Obviously it has to keep the big ones (LM24, Sebring12, and PLM), and it would be nice to keep classics such as Spa, Monza, Nurburgring or Silverstone (maybe with a rotation system), and have at least one race in Japan (Suzuka), but then it should absolutely include one South American race (Sao Paulo), one African (Kyalami) and one Australian (Adelaide?) too.

So IMHO the calandar soon has to extend to at least 10 races a season, which will be hard cost wise, as we just stated it will all be 1000km races minimum...
I wouldn't have thought that manufactures would be too bothered by Africa, the money's not there. Realistically, somewhere like Abu Dhabi is far more likely, although I'd imagine we'd be talking about a Chinese race instead.

No matter what the calendar is, there will be circuits and countries left dissapointed by the calendar next year unless there's about a dozen races.
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Old 4 Jun 2011, 22:26 (Ref:2891242)   #109
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Guess the acid test is going to be whether Janos Wimpffen sees fit to regard it as a world championship after the bleak way he drew a line under the whole thing in 1992 in "Monocoques and Ground Effects".

I can't see this being bad news. It's going to boost the profile of sportscar racing, Todt seems in the main to be running the FIA in a sensible way (and has lost his at times absurd view of Le Mans that he came up with when he was with Peugeot), and having a world title to play pulls more marketing strings for any manufacturer looking at entering.

In the short term it's probably going to be game over for the LMS and ALMS as we know them - but history does seem to show that what goes around comes around - there'll always be sportscar racing in Europe and North America, the flavour and style of it will change a bit, but I doubt it's ever going to go very far away.
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Old 4 Jun 2011, 23:08 (Ref:2891247)   #110
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So we went from a championship that included Le Mans, to the FIA Sports Car Championship without Le Mans until 2003, then Le Mans Series from 2004, Intercontinental Le Mans Cup now...to FIA World Endurance Championship including Le Mans in 2012.

In a few years the FIA gets bored of sportscars again...and as a result we'll be back to ILMC ;-)
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Old 5 Jun 2011, 00:16 (Ref:2891266)   #111
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The FIA tag isn't significant, it's the promoters behind the series.

Mangoletsi ran the FIA Sportscar Championship, Ratel FIA GT's, ACO FIA WEC.
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Old 5 Jun 2011, 07:18 (Ref:2891325)   #112
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I currently wonder which FIA-Grade the Mount Panorama circuit at Bathurst holds at the moment, particularly if LMPs would be allowed to race there
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Old 5 Jun 2011, 07:46 (Ref:2891335)   #113
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I currently wonder which FIA-Grade the Mount Panorama circuit at Bathurst holds at the moment, particularly if LMPs would be allowed to race there
Don't know for sure but I'd say it's either Grade 2 or 3. If it's Grade 2 then it's allowed to host races with LMPs.
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Old 5 Jun 2011, 11:28 (Ref:2891432)   #114
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So we went from a championship that included Le Mans, to the FIA Sports Car Championship without Le Mans until 2003, then Le Mans Series from 2004, Intercontinental Le Mans Cup now...to FIA World Endurance Championship including Le Mans in 2012.

In a few years the FIA gets bored of sportscars again...and as a result we'll be back to ILMC ;-)
It'll probably be when one of Audi or Peugeot gets bored, and then it will fall apart. Will it go back to ILMC? Hard to say, but the probability suggests that the ALMS won't be around when that happens, whether Road Atlanta and Sebring remain part of what is left or not, or whether it goes to Grand Am, or a new upstart NA series.
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Old 5 Jun 2011, 15:20 (Ref:2891546)   #115
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Just keep Ratel well away from it!
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Old 5 Jun 2011, 16:12 (Ref:2891558)   #116
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The World Sportscar Championship lasted for fifty years, it ended because the previous incarnation of the FIA used it's popularity with manufactuers to push them into F1, with unwanted reg changes.

The WEC is better placed than most to attract manufactuers, to quote the PR.

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In establishing this new category of motorsport championship, both the FIA and ACO are keenly aware it needs to be a laboratory for innovation and the development of new technologies, allowing motor manufacturers to express, through the rigours of competition, their ability to be inventive and, as this is an endurance championship, to also highlight their capacity to produce high quality and safe machines and components.
Neither are privateers being forgotten, with talks about supplying manufactuer engines to privateers, a travel package, plus a WC is easier to sell than the ILMC.

The ALMS attempted to expand beyond NA, that was a little too early, but the way they cut all overseas races left European teams and fans in limbo, from that point onwards it was inevitable a European series would be started.

Manufactuers will continue to race in NA, it's the ALMS's job to ensure they choose their series rather than US DTM, GA or Indycar.
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Old 6 Jun 2011, 09:05 (Ref:2891955)   #117
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I think this might finally solve the problem of the (larger) teams using all races that aren't the LM24, as glorified test sessions.

It'll also lessen the risk of competing in ACO style endurance racing, since there're now at least 2 "big prizes" a year, so there's a bigger chance of an appealing result, even if you don't win at Le Mans. Especially for manufacturers, the prospect of winning the ILMC just wasn't enough to warrant an endurance racing program, the only viable justification was success at Le Mans.
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Old 6 Jun 2011, 09:14 (Ref:2891968)   #118
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I think this might finally solve the problem of the (larger) teams using all races that aren't the LM24, as glorified test sessions.

It'll also lessen the risk of competing in ACO style endurance racing, since there're now at least 2 "big prizes" a year, so there's a bigger chance of an appealing result, even if you don't win at Le Mans. Especially for manufacturers, the prospect of winning the ILMC just wasn't enough to warrant an endurance racing program, the only viable justification was success at Le Mans.
And you might see teams turn up at races that were not that popular to the teams previously , such as the Mil Milhas at Interlagos a couple years ago
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Old 6 Jun 2011, 09:35 (Ref:2891985)   #119
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At first I did wonder why they didn't use back the WSC name, to restore some continuity with the past, but thinking twice about it, I'm relieved they choose WEC instead, because a "World Endurance Championship" is explicitly commited to run long races. They're not going to make Grand Prix-like races again.

I believe every parts involved were agreeing on that point, because the ACO had to ensure the championship will stay close to the roots of Le Mans racing, and the FIA surely doesn't want prototypes to step in F1's domain too.

But now that it is officialy a World Championship, it becomes critical that it steps on each continent of the Earth. Obviously it has to keep the big ones (LM24, Sebring12, and PLM), and it would be nice to keep classics such as Spa, Monza, Nurburgring or Silverstone (maybe with a rotation system), and have at least one race in Japan (Suzuka), but then it should absolutely include one South American race (Sao Paulo), one African (Kyalami) and one Australian (Adelaide?) too.

So IMHO the calandar soon has to extend to at least 10 races a season, which will be hard cost wise, as we just stated it will all be 1000km races minimum...
I don't think it's the best thing to start off with at least 10 races in the first season of the championship. It's great to think big but if you think about the privateers starting with a smaller amount of races will benefit them hugely. it will allow privateers to enter the first season to make a name for themselfs without having to pay a huge amount of money to make it to all the races. This can then be used to seek out sponsors for when the championship get's bigger.
So in my opinion they should have a maximum of 8 races in the first couple of years and try to expand after that. Making sure that the series get's popular and starts to attract crowds is the main thing they should focus on in the first couple of years...
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Old 6 Jun 2011, 13:01 (Ref:2892131)   #120
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I think this might finally solve the problem of the (larger) teams using all races that aren't the LM24, as glorified test sessions.
It did during the old Championship, so hopefully. It's only the 1st full year of ILMC, but I found it interesting that for example Quesnel has not refrained from making these "our goal is Le Mans" type of comments. It is probably true but it is sort of downgrading.
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Old 6 Jun 2011, 13:26 (Ref:2892151)   #121
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But now that it is officialy a World Championship, it becomes critical that it steps on each continent of the Earth. Obviously it has to keep the big ones (LM24, Sebring12, and PLM), and it would be nice to keep classics such as Spa, Monza, Nurburgring or Silverstone (maybe with a rotation system), and have at least one race in Japan (Suzuka), but then it should absolutely include one South American race (Sao Paulo), one African (Kyalami) and one Australian (Adelaide?) too.

So IMHO the calandar soon has to extend to at least 10 races a season, which will be hard cost wise, as we just stated it will all be 1000km races minimum...
This just won't happen. It will become one or two in Europe, plus LM, Sebring, maybe Brazil, definately China and maybe India or another Asian round.

The bigger question is going to quickly become, how to keep the regional series relevant. In all probability Europe will survive, but it is probable that the ALMS will not. The question then becomes, what will happen with Sebring, will it be removed, with no stops in North America at all? The other question being, how many entries will this World Championship get. Will entries in the low 20's suffice as a draw? LMS has threatened not to be involved, and if the ALMS fails there is no support categories in North America.

This whole thing is foolish, and will come crashing down in a few years.
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Old 6 Jun 2011, 14:03 (Ref:2892175)   #122
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The bigger question is going to quickly become, how to keep the regional series relevant. In all probability Europe will survive, but it is probable that the ALMS will not. The question then becomes, what will happen with Sebring, will it be removed, with no stops in North America at all? The other question being, how many entries will this World Championship get. Will entries in the low 20's suffice as a draw? LMS has threatened not to be involved, and if the ALMS fails there is no support categories in North America.
The best-case scenario is that the WEC won't need to rely on any national guest starters to have competitive starting grids.

Sebring will always survive as a WEC round, the event is too important to sports car racing, it dosen't need the ALMS. PLM is another matter, it's a fan favorite but the European teams don't seem to dig it very much for some reason..

To be honest, I don't really see much of a future for the ALMS. Interest in sports car racing in the US dosen't seem to be big enough to keep two series alive and Grand-Am simply has more potent backers behind them.

If BMW ends their programme after this year (which is likely with DTM coming up, unless RLR can fund it independendtly) and Corvette choses to do WEC instead of the ALMS then the series is completely busted. Currently, the ALMS is being kept alive by its GT class which is attractive because of the manufacturer involvement... if that breaks down, the series has nothing to fall back on.
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Old 6 Jun 2011, 14:36 (Ref:2892197)   #123
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The best-case scenario is that the WEC won't need to rely on any national guest starters to have competitive starting grids.

Sebring will always survive as a WEC round, the event is too important to sports car racing, it dosen't need the ALMS. PLM is another matter, it's a fan favorite but the European teams don't seem to dig it very much for some reason..
That indeed is the best case scenario, any other scenario suggests they will absolutely need National entries.

Regarding Sebring, I'm not so confident. Who is to say what the next ownership group will do. Which is to say, yes I think everything is for sale, it just doesn't have a sign out front.
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Old 6 Jun 2011, 14:52 (Ref:2892211)   #124
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it would be nice to keep classics such as Spa, Monza, Nurburgring or Silverstone (maybe with a rotation system)
Exactly. But the Nürburgring GP layout is too tight in comparison with endurance classics. I'd rather have the old Hockenheim... But Spa is a better option than a German circuit.

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IMHO the calandar soon has to extend to at least 10 races a season, which will be hard cost wise, as we just stated it will all be 1000km races minimum...
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I don't think it's the best thing to start off with at least 10 races in the first season of the championship. It's great to think big but if you think about the privateers starting with a smaller amount of races will benefit them hugely. it will allow privateers to enter the first season to make a name for themselfs without having to pay a huge amount of money to make it to all the races. This can then be used to seek out sponsors for when the championship get's bigger.
So in my opinion they should have a maximum of 8 races in the first couple of years and try to expand after that. Making sure that the series get's popular and starts to attract crowds is the main thing they should focus on in the first couple of years...
I disagree with both. An endurance racing championship can't have so many races. It's impossible to televise all of them. I vote for 2 or 3 European races, 2 North American and 2 or 3 in other continents. Small privateers will run in continental championships.

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So we went from a championship that included Le Mans, to the FIA Sports Car Championship without Le Mans until 2003, then Le Mans Series from 2004, Intercontinental Le Mans Cup now...to FIA World Endurance Championship including Le Mans in 2012.
Hey, don't confuse European and world championships.
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Old 6 Jun 2011, 14:59 (Ref:2892216)   #125
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Exactly. But the Nürburgring GP layout is too tight in comparison with endurance classics. I'd rather have the old Hockenheim... But Spa is a better option than a German circuit.
.....
I have to agree there unfortunately
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