The evolution of F1 drivers

[NiceGuyEddie]

Speed can't be bought. No matter how much money you offer for a seat, it will give you the seat but it won't make you quick. We all know that Yoong is out of his depth in F1 and we all can tell the paydrivers from the true racers without looking at their bankaccounts. So in terms of driverquality it doesnt really matter that every year one or two make the crop because of money. They simply cannot fool us.

Money does help you when you need to make choices in life. Ayrton stemmed from a wealthy family, so it would have been much easier for him to pickup go-kart racing and to actually discover his talent to begin with. I can imagine there are other Ayrtons around among the 6 billion worldpopulation, who can't afford to go gokartracing or just don't have a clue about their hidden drivingtalent. So be it, we will just never know.

At the end of the day I think its fair to say that in today's Formula 1 we do not have the 22 best drivers in the world, but overall it does represent the best driving this world has to offer. And that is good enough for me.

But this discussion was about evolution - as I understand it. So we would have to examine the possibility that today's driver are better in a physical way. I think its easy to answer that question with a clear 'yes'. We haven't stopped learning about the human body and the way it should be trained effectivly in order to drive a racecar on its limit.

The skill will bring you to the limit, the physical state of your body will keep you there. At least for a longer amount of time.

So yes, in that aspects a modernday-driver will outperfrom a vintage-driver.

I don't know about other aspects, because in my view they are impossible to compare.

[Guisbro Rod H]

Race driving is an art. Choosing the correct line and optimal use of power, tidy braking etc.

Does the improved fitness of todays drivers help. Think of Stuart Louis Evans and ask how on earth he drove a car. Mike Hawthorn was medically unfit for national service in the Armed Services. Some were fit, Fangio competed in a 6000 mile race (not a 300mile tour of South Wales with pace notes) across a continent. Moss in the Millia Miglia around the outside of Italy. So lets be generous and say that they were as fit as British National Rally drivers.

When I hire a Kart (hopefully with a straight chassis) I usually give the thing a thrashing. What race drivers call overdriving it. Fastest lap is about lap 5 then performance drops off because I am knackered. OK, so like you I claim the tyres warm up by lap 5 and overheat thereafter. Self decseat.

But was the actual driving better. Pierro Tarrufi in his book said it was amazing when you were flat out round a corner and then Fangio overtook him. Pierro T listened to Fangio's engine. The throttle was being manipulated to compensate for each tiny change in grip of the road surface. A mith you say. Well, contemporary drivers said Senna used the same technique. The fact that Senna was less fit than Schue and fitter than Fangio is irrelevent, its the technique. Bach, Beathoven and Lenneon did not need to be fit to create good music, if they were fit there tiredness would be postponed permitting longer performance or writing music.

I do agree that many of the "lesser" drivers today at the back of the field are better than those of yesturyear. Too many got killed in those old times. Look at the statistics, two, three, five or more killed per season with fewer races. Many of todays crashes would have killed in the past. Thank heavens for Barnard introducing carbon fibre and Jackie Stewart for seat belts. Drivers have time to develop and they can hone their skills from karts through tough competition of junior formula. And fortunately they are not killed frequently nowadays, so they survive and succeed. I cannot compare the skills of Tazio, Juan, Jimmy, Senna and Schue.

Yes TimD I was there at Donnington. Fangio was down to drive in the charity event organised by the "Whathisname" who died of testicular cancer. Supposed to be one of his championship winning cars, a 1955 Merc, but the factory refused to send a car from the museum. It was said that Willie Green scrounged a car from the museum, but it was a prewar model of the mid/early 30's.

Juan agreed to give it a go, he had never ever driven one before. Which way do I turn out of the pit garage, left or right asked the translator. No, he had never seen Donnington. He past my vantage point at the Old Hairpin. He looked odd, sitting up squinting around. Later it emerged he had his reading glasses on, he couldn't see clearly much beyond that long bonnet housing the V16. Next time round he was spinning the rear wheels. I was too thick to realise he was checking the grip in the corners until the next lap.

That Merc poured down the Kraner Curves like liquid mecury running down hill. Like a smooth liquid flowing swoop. The silver arrow past me then I did realise, the front wheels were virtually parrallel with the car. On his third lap that four wheel drift was being controlled by that rough engine.

It is said that at Goddards certain drivers looked up and were impressed. Former world champions like Hunt, Lauda, Black Jack Brabham, Surtees and others don't watch other drivers. Something attracted them all independantly to the pit wall to look. I don't rate the view from Donnington pit wall but they were impressed.

Naturally someone noted that one of those few laps broke that cars lap record, that car had never been round that circuit as fast, modern cars go much faster and he impressed some only a little.

Only Willi Green was upset. Not at being unable to beat Fangio. He was furious with himself. He wondered what lap time Fangio would done if all 16 cylinders were running smoothly. As for the tyres, they were old museum examples that had gone hard under the lights, he could not get a new set of that size at the last minute.

It was an old car, an old unwell car on bad tyres, but it is the artist behind it that matters. Fitness helps in maintaining your performance at its peak in the modern high g environment.

[Rennen]

What a lovelly picture you paint of that day Rod...Gunnar Neilsson "wozizname" I was there too...it's was a snapshot in time for me too...a chance to go back in time.

What an enjoyable read this thread has been...thank you Valve Bounce...I take it your valves are of the double spring varity not hydralic nor air let alone digital!

What proves your opening point for me is the athletes...how year on year they go faster!...is it the running shoes or the track surface?...no it is the training and the greater competitivness of modern competition!

For me the greatest in our sport, will always be Jim Clark, he had natural talent yes...but it was his ability to adapt to any type of car or event, those Indy cars!...the amazing performance he extracted from that Lotus Cortina!

I'm old enough to witnessed the end of the front engined Grand Prix car era.

I decided years ago that it's quite irrelevant and frankly pointless to bring into the equasion people who 'might' have been top sportsmen if...well they didn't! end of story.

I was an enthusiast, little money, but boy could I hold a drift in the firms delivery vans!...Dream on!...But funnily enough I got my chance through one of my sons...Anthony Davidson. I bought him a 60cc minikart when he was 8, as he was fascinated by F1 on TV. I almost feel guilty telling this story and taking up this thread space.

Applying the little I knew about racing I exploited the enthusiasum of my little lad, and started to see some good things happening, at first I thought I was just another star struck father. But I kept seeing little streaks of talent, a magical line here, a great overtaking move there, an extra tenth here and there, even when trying another lads kart.

I don't want to bore you with years of and hundreds of kart race moments here, but now a world of racing enthusiasts have seen just a bit of what I had been lucky enough to witness and enjoy most weekends for 8 years.

Dare I say "we" enjoyed 13 kart championships in junior karting together. Then as if it was a dream he was whisked away by professional teams...money suddenly wasn't an issue (until he went motor racing that is)

So whats my point amongst this indulgent ramberling!...well a bit of natural talent, nurtured at a tender age, passed on through professional hands, with lots of dedication and training with careful guidance and correct management (not mine) can get a young driver to the top level of our sport (well at least to the back of the grid)

In conclusion I think the modern F1 driver is a more complete package in everyway.

By the way a modern F1 is not an easy car to drive!... despite the so called 'driver aids' Anthony had to train very hard at a specialist training camp to develop his neck muscles etc to cope with the huge G forces currently experienced in a modern F1 car, Like most long time karters he has developed exceptionally upper body muscles, arms shoulders, back etc.

But like dare I say? the greatest like Jimmy he also has an uncanny ability to adapt almost instantly to a new type of machine or circuit.

On a selffish note I do hope a team has the courage and foresight to place him in a GP seat for next season.

Hope you didn't mind me hijacking your thread Valve Bounce.

[Valve Bounce]

Thanks for revitalising this thead. Please keep it going.


Valve

[Guisbro Rod H]

Originally posted by Rennen
What a lovelly picture you paint of that day Rod...Gunnar Neilsson "wozizname" I was there too...it's was a snapshot in time for me too...a chance to go back in time.
......................
For me the greatest in our sport, will always be Jim Clark, he had natural talent yes...but it was his ability to adapt to any type of car or event, those Indy cars!...the amazing performance he extracted from that Lotus Cortina!
....................
In conclusion I think the modern F1 driver is a more complete package in everyway.

By the way a modern F1 is not an easy car to drive!... despite the so called 'driver aids' Anthony had to train very hard at a specialist training camp to develop his neck muscles etc to cope with the huge G forces currently experienced in a modern F1 car, Like most long time karters he has developed exceptionally upper body muscles, arms shoulders, back etc.

Ah yes, thank you for reminding me, Gunner Neilsson. Brave guy that. Beginning to go fuzzy in the head from the huge doses of morphine but enough nouse to know he wanted to help the children suffering from cancer. Bit like Bob Champion but Gunner didn't make it. Now testicular cancer is one of the most painful ways to die. The cancer is ripping the testies apart. A kick in the whatsits has no resembalence to the pain he went through.

So he told the nurses to stop the morphine so he could think. Don't be stupid, you couldn't stand the pain without the morphine. Bravely he refused the morphine and started telephoning people. He got them to promise as his dying wish to hold an event for charity. He raised over £1 million or more in today's money. The doctors were in shear awe, nobody can stand that level of pain do what he did. But he did, brave guy.

So people think that modern F1 drivers are more complete packages. Yes I agree with you if you say that they have stronger neck muscles, upper body strength and those all important organ muscles. Did Anthony become a better driver because he was fitter? Yes the fitness and extra neck training allowed him to drive in the violent environment of a modern F1 car. Without that fitness training it would be impossible.

No, I am sure it is very difficult to drive an F1 car quickly in 2002 and I am damm sure I couldn't even if I was fit enough. But try it without power stearing, semi or auto gear changes and an electronic rev limiter. Add in a clutch, a gear lever that cut holes in the palm of your hand after 2000 plus gear changes at Monaco and the pain and difficulty become distracting assuming you don't over rev the engine slightly and then the engine will try to do a poor imitation of a Honda at Spa. Some say the nearest a marshal or a TV couch potato can get to that is via the game Grand Prix Legends - not tried it myself. Said to be exremely difficult.

Now Jim Clark used to annoy me. It looked so effortless compared to the hard graft of Graham Hill (Damon's Dad) or Ritchie Ginther. Jimmy was too timid to talk to strangers in the pit lane, but Graham... I could listen to him swapping stories with other drivers for hours. Now Jim could get into a new car or arrive at a new circuit and fly round for 5 or six laps, maybee ten. He would come in and say he didn't like it, he hadn't got the hang of it, he had no rythum. Colin Chapman was gobsmacked at first, you would be if you looked at the lap times. He was usually at or just below the lap record, say half a second off if the car had a half decent set up. Chapman and co new what to do - wait. Jim, who could never make up his mind outside a car would go off and have think by himself.

A bit later he would return and have another go. He would return a few laps later with the lap record in shreads, often upto 2 seconds below. Now I have got it he would say. Nobody could do it that car. But beware, don't compare Jim's team mates to his performance because often the cars were different. I remember Trevor Taylor correcting a letter writer by pointing out his car had carburetors and Jim's had the more powerful fuel injection. That's why I say the SAME car.

I told a young marshal incident marshal to stop watching the race and tell me if he saw anything unusual on or hanging off the carsa during a race. In the next race he said that there was something wrong with the car's suspension. It was begining to collapse. How did he know, because one wheel was of the ground by less than an inch (25.4mm). He had obviously been listening to the ITV commentators on F1. What would he have done with Jimmy in his Lotus Cortina. Jim would wave that front wheel like a dog lifting his paw to shake your hand. It looked as if you would have to measure that lift in feet not inches. Now that was a three wheeler to get excited about.

[Rennen]

I meet Peter Arundel (his son used to help a karting friend) he told me a few Jim Clark stories...one was...they were driving back from a GP in Jim's Elan, Peter was driving when they got stopped by a speed cop..."Who are you then?... Jim Clark!" Peter pointing at a bemused Jim, said "No officer!...he is!"

Yeah Jim was a natural, but did learn how to deal with the media after a while (not that it was as intrusive and as intense as it is today)

Those such as Clark..."come down from heaven" (JL) just to make mere mortals look average!

[alchemy]

Fascinating stuff Rod and Rennen. Like to stick my twopence worth in if I can. You really stirred up my emotions with your reflections of Fangio, Clark and others.

Today we take it for granted we can improve not only the performance of the body, but also the mind. In the days of Fangio such philosophy just wasn’t considered. Top drivers then were as good as they needed to be in order to get the job done, just as they are today. We all know that Roger Bannister’s four minute mile was as much a psychological barrier as anything else, which once broken allowed the floodgate to be opened for scores of others to follow. The same applies today with the rigorous training regimes that exists where drivers are breaking fresh ground establishing new thresholds of fitness. We see it so impressively demonstrated when Schumacher removes his helmet after a Grand Prix - not so much as a bead of sweat in sight. When I raced I needed to wring out my balaclava, and take a week off work… and that was after a 20 lapper at Brands!

I have no doubt that in the future, new methods of extracting even more from the human will be discovered. Motorsport must be one of the few areas of sport where the use of ‘performance enhancing drugs’ hasn’t really been an issue. But for how much longer? The rewards are now so great, the temptation of going that route must be a real probability. In comparison Stirling Moss and James Hunt arguably Britain’s most prolific drivers of their time, earned peanuts. So the temptation wasn’t an issue.

Looking into my crystal ball - I see 30 years on… a question is being put. "Was Schumacher as good as ‘Wayne Swift’, Wayne is a high on concoction 10 year old, and 2032 F1 world champion! Formula Ford is a memory replaced by Formula Embryo! Need I elaborate?

I’m happy that I live with the fact I’ve seen Fangio, Moss, Clark, Senna and Schumacher in action, they are all great drivers. But on a personal basis I’ve always been more interested in what they drove. Hallmark cars such as the Lotus 25 and 72, Williams FW07 and the purposeful looking forward driving position Ferrari 156, leave far more of an impression on me than any driver ever has.

As regards ‘the complete racing driver’. Well for me he doesn’t exist, and probably never did. But being a bit of a romantic, to me the epitome of a racing driver is the Steve McQueen type. You know, rugged sort who climbs from the cockpit complete with open face helmet pulls down his nomex face mask and through the muck and brake dust flashes the old pearlies at the blonde, embraces her, then takes her off to do what all racing drivers used to do (well I did anyway!).

Like Rennen I also have a Jim Clark related anecdote. It concerned the ill fated Lotus 40 sports racer after its initial shakedown. On asking how it was, Clark reputedly said "It’s just like the Lotus 30 - but with 10 more mistakes! It probably isn’t true that he really said it, but so what? But most of all the Chapman all time famous one must be. "The perfect racing car, is the one that crosses the finish line then disintegrates. If it doesn’t - it’s over engineered!" However Moss countered it after losing a wheel at Spa… "Perhaps someone should have told Colin it was a 48 lap race - not a 38!

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe I am taking the simplistic view: with so much more opportunity to race, learn, practice, greater competition at the lower ranks, how could drivers of today not be better all round? I suppose I am arguing against myself here but is it possible that with all these driver aids, it takes even more ability and talent to be faster than the other guy?

Valve

[Uncle]

Okay...Could a WWII Spitfire fighter pilot (God bless em) fly a say...F16 fighter jet?
Conversely could the modern F16 pilot fly the Spitfire with greater ease?
I'd have to say he could! Because hes a more "complete" pilot.
Therefore I conclude: A modern GP driver is better than a past era GP driver!

[Dani Filth]

Originally posted by floristry
Okay...Could a WWII Spitfire fighter pilot (God bless em) fly a say...F16 fighter jet?
Conversely could the modern F16 pilot fly the Spitfire with greater ease?
I'd have to say he could! Because hes a more "complete" pilot.
Therefore I conclude: A modern GP driver is better than a past era GP driver!

intresting .. but you can't be sure ...

[alchemy]

Floristry…… did you read my contribution a few posts ago?

[Uncle]

yes i suppose i was just agreeing but wanted to add something to the forum and try and get a few more postings now your up to 14 and im still on 10

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by floristry
Okay...Could a WWII Spitfire fighter pilot (God bless em) fly a say...F16 fighter jet?
Conversely could the modern F16 pilot fly the Spitfire with greater ease?
I'd have to say he could! Because hes a more "complete" pilot.
Therefore I conclude: A modern GP driver is better than a past era GP driver!

At the risk of going off-topic, I've got to really disagree with this...

The modern pilot is physically conditioned to withstand higher G-forces... But his weapons are guided by computers and and advanced radar, his plane keeps itself stable with thousands of tiny computer-aided input corrections a second. He often kills his enemy without even making visual contact.

The pilots of WWII were in a completely different environment. They had nothing but a few simple instruments and the seat of their pants to sense what the plane was doing. They had to fight in close quarters with machine guns blazing, in massive engagements in a sky full of planes, smoke and tracers. Those who survived weren't incredibly skilled or lucky: They were BOTH.

The best pilots of all were quite possibly American attack plane pilots of the Vietnam war. Flying fast jets at tree-top level thru thick smoke and tracer fire over the thick jungle, still with minimal computer assistance at this time... Unable to defend themselves against fighter planes, they could only hope to evade or call in support if a MiG found them and pursued. And they _really_ had to be skillful to trick a SAM into missing them... It was a matter of outflying the missle, dodging it just as it neared you. These guys were something else...

General Chuck Yeager, generally regarded as one of the greatest pilots who ever lived, once said (excuse me if the quote isn't exact, I'm writing from memory) "If I had the choice of fighting against a good pilot in a poor plane, or an average pilot in the best plane, I'd take the latter every time." Technology isn't a challlenge, it's really a crutch that attempts to negate human error.

And honestly, I'd have to say pilots today tend to be pretty poor fliers... Remember the USAF ski tram clipping incident of several years ago?

[alchemy]

Sorry Lee Janotta, no offence, but I think you’re talking out of your ‘Afterburner!’

[Lee Janotta]

<chuckles>

Well, you're entitled to your opinion!

[Speed]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
Speed can't be bought.

[Valve Bounce]

Also, it is clear that Lee has not watched Top Gun ! Otherwise he would reallise that Tom Cruise is the greatest pilot ever
And to increase my number of posts over both Alchemy and Floristry combined, I have resorted to posting here as a typing tutorial to learn touch typing - that's why most of my posts are long and rambling and make no sense. I just keep typing to have fun.

Valve

[alchemy]

Not only was Tom Cruise the greatest pilot ever, but also the greatest Nascar driver ever! Now we’re talking about an ‘Afterburner’!!!! Lucky for the GP boys he didn’t turn his hand to F1.

As for your ‘typing to have fun’ Valve Bounce, remember "While ya hands on ya key board - they cant be anywhere else!"

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by alchemy
Not only was Tom Cruise the greatest pilot ever, but also the greatest Nascar driver ever! Now we’re talking about an ‘Afterburner’!!!! Lucky for the GP boys he didn’t turn his hand to F1.

Now wait - there's a thought; let's put him in the Toyota { I really, really wish I can get my hands on a chuckle smilie }

Valve

[Dani Filth]

you bringed the airplanes .. i'll bring the Tanks ... Is Michael Wittman .. the best tank commander in history and future ..... he ..he ... my 201 post ... keep them flowing

[Valve Bounce]

OK, OK - after the F1 turn with Toyota, we'll put Tom Cruise in the tank - will the BAR do?

Valve

[Dani Filth]

yep .... but better a Bugatty Type-32

[Valve Bounce]

Hey Dani, don't forget that when you get to 1000 posts, you qualify for the lucky draw for the Ferrari - the draw is made when everybody gets to 1000 posts.

Now I must go - The Bill is on

Valve

[Dani Filth]

rrrreeeeaaaaallllyyyyy ... wow

[TimD]

Tom Cruise - Bugatti Type 32. I like it.

Motor racing historian humour at work.