Toyota, why I hate 'em

neilap · 9 Sep 2002, 13:15 (Ref:376421)

http://www.champweb.net/newsx21.htm

This aritcle is a bit long but it sums up how and why Toyota races. The rivalry between the two is vicious but Toyota just does not seem to have the correct attitude towards sport. With 20 Billion dollars who can even afford to compete with them. I feel that in a couple years they will attempt to impose their will in F1 too. Not from winning races but by buying them.

Sato san · 9 Sep 2002, 13:44 (Ref:376451)

i will read that Neil.....i had wonder'd why you disliked them so much !

Lee Janotta · 9 Sep 2002, 14:25 (Ref:376500)

Y'know, I've never looked at it that way Neil, but jeez... When you see it as a sort of David v. Goliath conflict, I guess you really do have to feel sorry for poor little Honda...

Sato san · 9 Sep 2002, 14:49 (Ref:376519)

thats true.....but its seems hard to look at HONDA and think of them as little ....never really looked at it like that before.

BootsOntheSide · 9 Sep 2002, 16:33 (Ref:376597)

That's how F1's going. Toyota is huge compared to Honda. Honda is huge compared to Williams-BMw. Williams-BMW is huge compared to Sauber. Sauber is huge comapred to Minardi. If Honda, Toyota and Ford get their respective acts together, they will just blitz the established teams, BMW and Merc will buy out Frank and Ron, and F1 will just be a manufacturer spending contest. Makes it even mroe imperative that we save CART and prevent that being destroyed as well

Tye · 9 Sep 2002, 18:29 (Ref:376724)

Toyota are the big boys,that there is no doubt.

They have a wealth of talent and are loaded.

Toyota are number three in terms of a carmaker,but are the wealthiest by far.On current share values(this from an article in 2001),Toyota are worth about 96 billion pounds,roughly two and a half times as much as Ford,owner of Jaguar,and three times as much as Daimlar-Chrysler,who own Mercedes-Benz.Toyota have enough in the bank(12 billion pounds,again,by 2001 standards)to buy Ferrari owner Fiat over twice,and could swallow Honda or Renault without raising too juch of a sweat.

It sure puts things in perspective,doesn't it?

Now that is some serious money.

Tye

PoweredByHonda · 9 Sep 2002, 19:38 (Ref:376790)

Quote:

Originally posted by Tye
Toyota are number three in terms of a carmaker,but are the wealthiest by far.On current share values(this from an article in 2001),Toyota are worth about 96 billion pounds,roughly two and a half times as much as Ford,owner of Jaguar,and three times as much as Daimlar-Chrysler,who own Mercedes-Benz.Toyota have enough in the bank(12 billion pounds,again,by 2001 standards)to buy Ferrari owner Fiat over twice,and could swallow Honda or Renault without raising too juch of a sweat.

WOW.....
Well I know there's one thing Toyota doesn't have, and that's the racing spirit, they race purely to raise brand awareness, wheras Honda race mainly for the passion of it and that is why they succeed. (recent blowups not withstanding) Toyota may have the big bucks, but they won't succeed in the way Honda has in the past and in the way Honda surely will in the future. Money does not equal guaranteed success, witness the BAR/BAT fiasco, however, as Frank Williams so often demonstrates, it's the passion for racing that drives success not dollar bills (altho they sure can help).

neilap · 9 Sep 2002, 20:50 (Ref:376878)

I thought I would be bashed for posting this; it is nice to see that my standpoint is at least understood. I am a very competitive person by nature. However it is not only winning that I get a thrill from, it is the whole competition. Lately web sites like ITV and Autosport have become heavily biased towards things Toyota. It goes to show what lining pockets can do. F1 seems a lot more secure than CART so I don’t think it will be as easy for them to impose their will on the teams and governing body but I know from their past that they will make attempts.

Here is anther example of them having no pride and just wanting the bragging rights...

The fastest growing auto sport in the US among the youth is compact drag racing. Cars like the Honda Civic have revolutionized the sport (with very little factory support). Ford, GM and of course Toyota saw that all the young kids were buying up Hondas and wanted a piece of the pie. This is understandable. There was a 25k check awaiting the first compact to run 200mph or to go below 7 seconds in the 1/4 mile. Many rotary powered Mazdas and some Toyotas were in a heated battle to attain this goal. Ford even sponsored a purpose build Focus to make the mark. What does Toyota do? They along with the one of the biggest if not the biggest turbo manufacturer in the US build a beast that was destined to break more than one record. It was a rear wheel drive, v8 powered Toyota Celica!! Yes with a displacement over 5.0 liters. Needless to say it was the first to hit 200 mph. Because of public scrutiny the car will be banned next year!!

When they achieve more success in F1 I will be very skeptical of the means by which they have attained it. I am sure they are more than capable of building a championship winning car. The problem is that F1 takes time to get a grip of. Ferrari was down for 20 years. I don’t think Toyota will wait that long. Count on many under the table deals.

Mr V · 9 Sep 2002, 20:57 (Ref:376886)

Quote:

Originally posted by neilap
What does Toyota do? They along with the one of the biggest if not the biggest turbo manufacturer in the US build a beast that was destined to break more than one record. It was a rear wheel drive, v8 powered Toyota Celica!! Yes with a displacement over 5.0 liters. Needless to say it was the first to hit 200 mph.

Neil, don't take this personally, but haven't they just done something that you have desribed yourself as? They are simply just being competitive.

Quote:

Originally posted by neilap
I am a very competitive person by nature.

neilap · 9 Sep 2002, 21:58 (Ref:376949)

It can be viewed as competitive or it can be seen as guaranteeing a win. If they wanted to be compeitive I think they would have beaten the other racers at their own game. There are other Toyotas that dont have factory backing that are pretty close to the speed of the Celica. Toyota could have easily stayed within the "unwritten" rules of that sport, instead they looked for flaws in the rules and exploited them. It was a political victory not one that was won on the track.

I guess this can be called my official vent forum because most of what is here is reasons why I dislike them. They build some of the best road cars in the world and are the only company in the US that have made BMW and Mercedes lower their prices and improve their quality in hopes of staying competitive. Their cars are practically indestructable. I have tried!!

They just have the wrong attitude when it comes to racing. Formula one is their new venture and though they attempt to come on as humble I dont feel this is how the powers that be at Toyota actually think.

greg.n · 9 Sep 2002, 22:20 (Ref:376967)

Thats right and it was the men in Tokyo who decided to sack both drivers and install another two. They got Panis who is an experienced driver and good tester and if he lasts two years and gets some good results I'm right behind him. The Da Matta incident is basically because they wanted a South American for marketing purposes. Haas put a big price on Da Matta's contract but once Massa became available the value of Da Matta went down and all he was offered was a testing contract at a a sum not alot more than he can earn now as (potential) Cart champ. So Massa or maybe Webber will get the second Toyota seat. They possibly own a big hunk of Chip Ganassi as well, which is why Chip is going to the IRL.

Inigo Montoya · 9 Sep 2002, 23:13 (Ref:377000)

Quote:

Originally posted by neilap
http://www.champweb.net/newsx21.htm

With 20 Billion dollars who can even afford to compete with them. I feel that in a couple years they will attempt to impose their will in F1 too. Not from winning races but by buying them.

Currently, this is the F1 budgets, sorted by team:

1. Ferrari 302 millions
2. McLaren 287 millions
3. Renault 255 millions
4. Toyota 238 millions
5. BAR 235 millions
6. Williams 230 millions
7. Jaguar 211 millions
8. Jordan 190 millions
9. Sauber 104 millions
10. Minardi 83 millions
11. Arrows 49 millions

Taking into consideration that Ferrari, Toyota, and Jaguar make both engines and cars - tell me how Toyota is the big, bad boy of F1?

neilap · 10 Sep 2002, 01:34 (Ref:377035)

Globally, Toyota towers over Honda, boasting auto output that is neck and neck with that of Ford Motor Co., General Motors Corp. and DaimlerChrysler AG. Also dont forget Toyota's cash hoard, 2.2 trillion yen ($20.5 billion) as of March 31, 2000. That was two years ago. Now its up to 30 billion. The money that most of the teams put into F1 is what they can afford. What Toyota puts in is what they choose. That is how they are the big bad boys.

Also they have been known to pay off who they cant beat. Look at the Target CART team.

Where do you get the numbers for the teams budgets. I am not doubting them its just that I have always wanted to find out how much some of these teams are putting into the sport.

Jukebox · 10 Sep 2002, 01:45 (Ref:377036)

F1 being the pinnancle of motorsports...it's only fair only the wealthiest survives and excels.

From the figure that Inigo had listed...there's not much difference in terms of money spent between BAR and Toyota. Just becaue they have the money, then they are the big bad boys?

Inigo Montoya · 10 Sep 2002, 01:55 (Ref:377042)

http://www.f1-passion.com/argentf1.htm

Says the source if F1 magazine. I hear what you are saying neil, but Agnelli basically gave Ferrari a blank cheque to get them to top. Don't think its possible to do it without big $$.

neilap · 10 Sep 2002, 03:53 (Ref:377063)

I would think that their history in racing is enough to show that racing for them is not about competing its about winning in any way possible, even cheating. I knew some would not agree with me. Hopefully I am proven to be wrong but I just dont trust them. Even the way they started F1, testing during the testing ban because they were not "officially" an F1 team as yet. Lets wait and see. I can bet that in a couple of years more people will agree with me. I dont care how much money they have its just what they do eith it.

Valve Bounce · 10 Sep 2002, 05:06 (Ref:377074)

I must say that in some ways, Honda only have themselves to blame for lack of early success in the automotive field. I clearly remember the pre-'82 Civics were rust buckets and in Hong Kong, the only way to get rid of a Civic was to take the licence plates off after parking the thing in the streets at night. Otherwise dumping it cost lots of money. That gave Honda a very bad reputation especially when the Toyotas had a very good reputation against rust.
Now we have the BAR debacle where after zillions was spent, and a WDC hired to drive the HondaBar, the achievements always depended on many top cars dropping out. Without checking the records, I am willing to bet that no BAR has ever scored points unless the cars in front of it dropped out with mechanical problems or crashed. I do not remember a HondaBAR ever contesting a podium place right from the start off a race and getting onto the podium as a result. Now, with all that money and good drivers, that is a lamentable record of success.
I say that if Toyota is willing to spend money big time to produce a half decent car to compete with the top three, then go for it. I'm looking forward to it. So far, I think BAR is spending more per year than Toyota.

Finally, there was this Japanese lady who went to see an optometrist; after the examination, he said to her: "Mrs. Fujimoto, you have a cataract". "No, no!" she replied, "I have a Toyota!!"

Valve

Blue · 10 Sep 2002, 05:21 (Ref:377076)

Oh that was really long article. i wonder when it would end!
I always thought Honda is liberal and innovative while Toyota is conservative and dull, just plain greedy.

I don't hate Toyota that much, but in terms of corporate culture, it is good for all of us that the company like Honda survivies.

Nicholas · 10 Sep 2002, 13:16 (Ref:377386)

At the end of the day, for the team it's all about getting the results and being able to continue for several more years. I've never really been very excited about Toyota and it's not just because I support a Honda team.

Quote:

BAR were ridiculed for their under-achievement in their first years of F1, but it’s taken the massive failure of Toyota to put this into perspective. We tend to forget that this is Toyota’s second season in F1, they only opted not to participate in the 2001 season at the last minute.

In their second season of F1 BAR came 6th in the constructors' table and scored 17 points. This is effectively Toyota’s second season in Formula 1, the team has the second highest investment next to Ferrari yet it's scored just two points so far – and one of those was in Australia on a day when the next man home was Alex Yoong.

That was from planetf1. It's slightly misleading- the main reason why they didn't participate last year was because they were set back by the FIA when the rules were changed (that V12s weren't allowed). When most of us were praising Toyota at the beginning of this season it looked like they were going to continue like that. But they didn't.

Even BAR has run in a podium position on its own merit (okay the team never took advantage of those occasions, and they're still useless) and of course Toyota's engine is impressive, but I won't say anything until next season.

neilap · 10 Sep 2002, 19:08 (Ref:377573)

Valve, it really takes luck for anyone who is not in Bridgestone/Ferrari, Maclaren, or Williams to score points. Renault has needed luck for all of their points this year and they are a full works team.

BAR has been a flop since they have started in F1. By the end of each season they look as though they may be able to improve on the next season. The problem is that their improvements are baby steps when they need leaps and bounds to even look competitive. Honda has also brought two really bad motors to race in the last two seasons. Last years were basically unimproved all season and this year just doesn’t seem to be able to be improved enough. In short, right now they suck!
There is nothing more for me to really add to me not liking Toyota. If them cheating their way to a title in the WRC and them paying off teams so that the can advertise falsely does not raise any eyebrows then I don’t know what else to say. In F1 they are sure to do the same thing. I don’t even think it is coincidence that OP drives for them now. Ove said that they did not want an older driver; I guess unless he drove a Honda.
They don’t race for competition.

Russfeld · 10 Sep 2002, 19:23 (Ref:377578)

That article is pure propaganda. Its written by an author who is biased, ignorant, but who writes well.

He seems to have overlooked Toyotas efforts at WRC and Le Mans.

Nicholas · 10 Sep 2002, 21:03 (Ref:377632)

WRC...?

Valve Bounce · 10 Sep 2002, 21:40 (Ref:377678)

Quote:

Originally posted by Russfeld
That article is pure propaganda. Its written by an author who is biased, ignorant, but who writes well.

He seems to have overlooked Toyotas efforts at WRC and Le Mans.

Hey!! You leave Neilap alone.

Actually, HondaBar have one of the best F1 drivers, they did only have one team to supply engines to initially, and now they again have one team. We can only hope that Honda will become more pro-active in the development of the car.

Valve

Inigo Montoya · 11 Sep 2002, 02:10 (Ref:377799)

We can only hope that this "one of the best F1 drivers" agrees to leave the team so that they divert the (wasted) money they use to pay him towards being more pro-active in the development of the car.

Valve Bounce · 11 Sep 2002, 02:44 (Ref:377808)

You know - I find it strange that a Canuck would like to see their own champion cut down to size.

Valve

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