Speculation on Honda/Toyota leaving IRL

[jock25]

Following on from speculation about the Grand Prix of Long Beach switching from CCWS to IRL, Gordon Kirby stated the following on the Champ Car Roundtable programme following Sunday's race:

"Let me tell you something about the IRL," Kirby said on Champ Car's Roundtable show. "Toyota is out of the IRL - they are going to announce it after the Indy 500, and everybody knows it.

"Chip Ganassi as we speak is preparing to close down his IRL team [...] Roger Penske and everybody in Toyota know this is the situation. Then, Honda - are they going to race against Toyota? My Japanese friends tell me that at the end of the year Honda are going to announce that they're out at the end of 2006.

"So if these guys [at Long Beach] are going to buy into IRL, what exactly are they going to buy into?"

Combiine this with the comments of Lee White, Toyota Motorsports manager last November:

"Chevrolet's departure is very bad... You have open-wheel racing without an American manufacturer and the Indianapolis 500 without an American manufacturer. That's a pretty serious deal.

"We haven't decided to leave. We are committed to the program through 2006. I'd hate to say we are in any position to dictate but certainly I'm extremely concerned for the series. The fact Chevrolet [is leaving] is a very, very serious problem for the IRL."

Is the IRL effectively about to do a Champ Car? Are Kirby's comments only the remarks of a staunch Champ Car supporter? Or is he in fact spot on and by 2006 the IRL will be a Honda championship?

As has been said by many people on this forum in the past, Honda and Toyota are unlikely to stick around to bash each other to death. Costs are through the roof (although the manufacturers have most of the responsibility for this) and it is well known that teams like AGR, Penske and Ganassi are heavily subsidised by their engine partners. Plus Toyota really want to do the Nextel Cup...and all of this just when the championship was starting to get really interesting!

[Snips1]

Why is Kirby so concerned about the IRL?

Isn't he supposed to write aout CC not IRL???

[Kicking-back]

It's propaganda - designed to destabilise the IRL so ChampCar can hold on to Long Beach.

[BSchneiderFan]

If Honda and Toyota do quit, though (and who can say they won't?), where does that leave the IRL? No engine manufacturers. Big problem.

I don't think a journalist of Gordon Kirby's calibre would be making things up just to have a pop at the IRL. Look at the facts. Chevrolet are committed to leaving at the end of this year. Toyota are refusing to give a commitment beyond 2006 and are saying that there are 'big problems'. Only a fool would believe that Honda will hang around to supply the whole grid - where's the incentive? This is a real problem, folks, not simply OWRS propaganda.

[jock25]

Anyone who read Kirby's last article for Autosport would probably agree that his allegiance is to American racing. His ambition is simply that 'American racing' does not become NASCAR and NASCAR does not become 'American racing'.

The failure of Honda/Toyota to declare clearly their intentions regarding the IRL is what is realy giving credibilty to his comments.

[N I Tram]

If it happens the series will survive, don't worry about that. A source of engines for 2007 and beyond can be found, and it will make the racing cheaper and more affordable. Ganassi fully switching his efforts to NASCAR would be a shame, but not really a huge surprise, as that's where the money is. I suspect his IRL efforts haven't been getting 100% commitment since Honda took the upper hand over Toyota.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by N I Tram

If it happens the series will survive, don't worry about that. A source of engines for 2007 and beyond can be found, and it will make the racing cheaper and more affordable.

Cosworth?

[mabs_nsx]

come back to Champcars Toyota & Honda!!!!!!!!!

Can't they be in IRL and CCWS????

[Tim Northcutt]

I'll wait until the 2007 engine specs are announced this May....

then we'll see who will go where...but from what I've been hearing, both from posts by Team Owner in other threads and also around town, the package will probably have some flexibility in it that will bring Chevy back...and could keep Toyota and Honda....

One other note, I read in a story linked on Auto Racing Daily's site that other Toyota teams are going to get the upgrades made available to them that Penske has achieved via work in his own engine shops....


However, if Honday and Toyota do leave the IRL, I'm sure that Paul-Collins and I could make a couple of suggestions concerning what they ought to do with all of those 3.0 L engines that they will have sitting idle, with no place to race them....

[Snips1]

Originally Posted by N I Tram

If it happens the series will survive, don't worry about that. A source of engines for 2007 and beyond can be found, and it will make the racing cheaper and more affordable. Ganassi fully switching his efforts to NASCAR would be a shame, but not really a huge surprise, as that's where the money is. I suspect his IRL efforts haven't been getting 100% commitment since Honda took the upper hand over Toyota.

Sure but what about the cars, if T&H leave the IRL wwould loose something like 10-12 cars and what about the drivers like, Hornish Jr, Rice, Patrick, Helio etc, will they follow T&H whereever that might be???

[BootsOntheSide]

ChampCars will surely be a spec engine championship for the forseeable future - having paid good money for Cosworth, and seen the series massively unsettled by big engien companies leaving after trying to set the rules, they are unlikely to want to take that risk again, so I doubt they would go to ChampCars again.

Toyota are going to NASCAR gradually, that is pretty clear, but it needn't automatically be at the expense of their OW efforts. Honda going to NASCAR would be a surprise. In any case, few of their current drivers are likely to consider it as a career option - Hornish certianly would, guys like Kanaan and Rice might, but others would proabbly be willing to stay in IRL, taking a pay cut if neccessary, or go to ChampCars if that manages to attract mroe outside sponsors over the next 2 years.

A lot remains to be seen. If Toytoa does make that announcement post-Indy, it will have a huge impact - 2006 could feasibly be a spec Honda year.

[sr230772]

i think its a shame but the boots on the other foot champ car looks good for now so why bother having t & h back i think the annoucement of a race in china is huge, maybe honda and toyata are waiting to see what happens,but ford have supported champ car really well would they want them back i think not look at all the exposure ford will get in korea and china hopefully next year plus they signed a multi year contract so they can stay where they are or disappear for all i care,but i hpoe for the irl they stay or at least one of them a lot of peoples jobs depend on it not just drivers but teams

[Snrub]

I don't think this means game over, it might mean that a lot of money is pulled out of the IRL. Let's say that some big teams were lost or shrunk, it might mean that smaller teams would take their place. The IRL formed out of virtually nothing (wasn't it just Foyt from Champ Car initially?) and the current Champ Car grid formed out of a lot of new teams.

I don't think it's inconceivable for Honda to stay in the IRL, even if they were the only manufacturer. Engine costs would drop dramatically and thus they could lower their investment while still participating.

I really think this is not such a bad thing. If both series are depressed, then they'll have motivation to compromise and come together. If CC can get decent TV ratings this year, then they'll be on a pretty even playing field. This compromise only has to be negotiated between three individuals, TG, KK and GF (PG too, but he only has a 10% stake).

[GP Racer]

I say let em go. They are a double-edged sword, doing some good things, but not enough to outweigh the bad.

Let's get back to production based engines, this way even more manufacturers could come on board. The Grand Am DP program is the way to go, as they now have 7 manufacturers on-board. There are a number of manufacturers out there that build an 8 cylinder that can be modified for the IRL, and that would bring some real diversity to the series.

I'm not to worried because it looks like TG and the IRL saw this problem coming and have reacted quickly and early to find a fix.

[Dennis H.]

the Kirby article got yanked from the website today apparently because it was based on false information, pretty sad when journalists are acting like forum posters.

[mountainstar]

Well time will tell wont it? But based on the comments made by the honda and toyota honchos late last year I wouldn't bet on them staying.

[Hazza]

Doesn't supprise me, Kirby et al publish rubbish, if you ask me

[JohnSSC]

I think there is some confusion as to the Ford/Cosworth "support" in OWRS. Essentially these engines are leased. Cosworth does the maintenance. It is a business transaction that almost anyone with a sophisticated shop can do - there is no "development" going on.

Tim N and GP have both posted on this issue and the relative ease (and low $$) with which the rules could be modified to allow the use of the current engines with individual teams once again maintaining/developing the engine.

A decrease or end to manufacturer involvement is not necessarily a bad thing and may actually decrease costs and spark additional interest in the IRL as the "tweaking" part of the program would add some interest.

Open Wheel racing in this country should look a little less like the SCCA's Spec Racer classes and have more of an element of engineering ingenuity (or deviousness depending on what sort of ingenuity you intend to use!).

[Dennis H.]

CCWS is planting rumors with CCWS friendly journalists like Kirby and Miller because of the pending Long Beach negotiations, this is going to be a war that will make the previous spats look like a lovefest.

[racer69]

The same lot running with this stuff were probably the same lot who said in 2003 that Toyota and Honda would be out of the IRL after their 3-year contract expired, what happened, they renewed for another year.

There is a new rules package on the way for 2007 anyway.......

[JohnSSC]

The new rules package may be why both have been quiet about renewing. Until the ink is dry on what the new engine specs will be (if they change) then the manufacturers won't know if it is worth their involvement.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Dennis H.

CCWS is planting rumors with CCWS friendly journalists like Kirby and Miller because of the pending Long Beach negotiations, this is going to be a war that will make the previous spats look like a lovefest.

Bingo!!!!

and they know how much is at stake....so why not have the shills run with stories and rumors to try to tilt the issues in their favor....

Let's see if it affects Dover's decision...because they will ultimately call the shots here...

[BootsOntheSide]

There's certainly no guarantee that Toyota or Honda will remain in the ILRL in 2007, but suggesting that anything has been settled does appear to be dangerous propaganda. As a wise man once said, the first casualty of war is the truth, and there's been as little truth as possible from official websites and series loyalists on both sides for the last few eyars.

[dubby99]

There is a new rules package on the way for 2007 anyway.......[/QUOTE]


I reckon you can throw any engine package at honda and toyota and they will build it but i don't think thats the problem at the moment.

Chev have the problem with engine specs because they want to go with something cheaper with less R&d (no pretend stories there).

IMHO Honda and Toyota are like siameased twins, one will look where the other looks one will go where the other goes.

[Tim Northcutt]

Like I said...I'll wait until May when the new specs are announced...

But my guess is that there will be two directions teams can go...

1. Buy or lease a 3.0 L engine that is like the ones that are currently in the Series or

2. Acquire a cheaper, somewhat larger displacement production-based engine that has a "kit" and can be assembled,, tweaked & maintained by various "approved" engine builders like Speedway, Comptec, Brayton, Rousch, etc...

Of course, there would be certain restrictions placed on option 2 in order to balance out the horsepower...whether it would be a rev limiter that cuts the max reves at 8,500 rpm, or whatever....

Team Owner had alluded to option 2 about 6 weeks ago in a post....and would be of interest to Chevy...and the smaller teams that currently can't afford to run due to the higher costs of engine leases, etc...

Option 1 would be to keep Honda & Toyota happy....

In a way, it would kinda go back to an idea they applied in the early 1980s, when teams could go turbos or stock-block...

and it seemed to work rather well when they did it...

At least this is what I'm hoping they will come up with as a solution...