Speculation on Honda/Toyota leaving IRL

[Xpunk75]

If Toyota and Honda leave and GM is leaving after this year it is going to leave the IRL despretely looking for an Engine supplier like CART was a few years ago. CHAMP CAR made a great decision in by Cosworth from Ford cause now they never ever have to worry about engine suppliers and if anyones wants to come in like honda, Gm, or Toyota which they have not expressed any interest to get me wrong, but if they wanted to they could but the series does not have to rely on them. I think was the guy said in the first post about Toyota wanting to join the Nextel cup makes alot of sense and I think Honda just want to Concentrate on there F1 team. I don't know many of you follow F1 but they purchased 50% of the BAR team with a option to buy the rest of it in the next few years i believe but with team not having finished a race this season i believe they just want to concentrate on F1 thus them wanting to pull out of IRL and As far as GM goes im surprized they stayed in IRL as long as they did cause they never do open wheel racing.

I think things for the IRL could get really bumpy and rumors of a Merge with CART will become very strong in the next two years and even though it may happen I don't think it will. I think Champ Car can find a engine supplier in 2 years. Maybe Chrysler, another manufacture from Japan looking to get into open wheel racing. Although without an American engine in an American series of racing does seem kind of stupid. I think IRL have alot problems and alot of stuff to work on if there going to survive this.

It's so strange couple years ago the IRL was on top and CHamp Car was dieing now some new guys buy Champ Car and Cosworth and suddenly things are looking up for them and down for IRL. I agree though the IRL championship has gotten alot more interesting and has been really intertaining this year. I have enjoyed and i would have enjoyed more if there were more road courses this season but i think if they were to merge with Cart that the series would change we would see more of a 50% Ovals, 50% Road Courses/ Street circuit racing. I know for alot of you that would make you sick but maybe that would keep the sport from having to go to China, Korea and other foriegn Countries. Leave those forign countries for F1 there not for American Open Wheel racing which Champ Car and IRL should be about.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I think there is some confusion as to the Ford/Cosworth "support" in OWRS. Essentially these engines are leased. Cosworth does the maintenance. It is a business transaction that almost anyone with a sophisticated shop can do - there is no "development" going on.

Sorry to go offtopic here, but OWRS owns the engines, and contracts Cosworth for the maintainance.

As far as Honda and Toyota... they certainly will do whatever it is, they feel is in their best interests. Surely the LBGPA is well aware of future Toyota plans, given their relationship with Toyota. A strong portion of any push to change to the IRL, would have to be from Toyota. If they planned on leaving the IRL, would they care?

[GP Racer]

The LBGP has rarely ever had Toyota cars in the field there, so I don't think they'll care much if Toyota leave's the IRL. It won't be a factor in their decision IMO.

Sounds as though the 3 amigos are bracing themselves for a showdown on the LBGP:

Champ Car Series Considering Alternate LA Location if LB Falls ?


A number of reports out of Long Beach this weekend are indicating that Kevin Kalkhoven is committed to the Los Angeles area, and that the series is considering setting up their own street race if Long Beach were to change to another series.

Kalkhoven told the Indystar, "Every good businessman has contingency plans and we have ours. I hope it doesn't come to that."

This is beginning to get ridiculous, isn't it...

[mabs_nsx]

Corection Honda bought 45% of BAR not 50%

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

This is beginning to get ridiculous, isn't it...

Not really. What if someone came in and wrote a big check to buy your beloved Indy 500 out from under you, how would you feel?

I find it ironic the IRL community has panned "street parades" for years, now it's looked upon as the saving grace of the IRL.

To me, I think everyone is missing the point on the continuation of honda/toyota support. The particular engine specs don't mean anything, it's all about the bureaucratic bean counters and their "return on investment" and they are going to look at how many butts are in the seats and what the tv ratings are versus the cost. Whether the engine has 6 cylinders, 8 cyls, 8500 rpm or 10500 rpm or 2.7 liters or 3.3 liters or whatever, doesn't matter.

[dubby99]

Mountainstar i agree with 100%

Not sure if this is true if someone can correct me but i heard TG put 25 mill on Long beach. Is this true??

If yes.......

This is begining to get ridiculous, isn't it....

[JohnSSC]

Thanks for the correction Fogelhund, I couldn't remember if OWRS owned them outright but I knew it was not the same arrangement as you find currently with Honda/Toyota.

To keep this on topic, I remember the "stock block" days - they generated quite a bit of fan interest as many could relate to tinkering with assorted V-8's in their younger days and it was cool to see what teams were shoehorning into the back of their chassis'.

I hope Option 2 as noted by Tim comes to fruition - it would seem to be the best of both worlds.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

The LBGP has rarely ever had Toyota cars in the field there, so I don't think they'll care much if Toyota leave's the IRL. It won't be a factor in their decision IMO.

Correct; LBGP is sponsored by the local Toyota dealers, not TRD or Toyota itself.

[Tim Northcutt]

Just to clarify this:

The rumors in town here have talked about tams being able to choose between Option 1 and Option 2...

But you know how rumors go....

I'll wait until it is official....and you can expect such an announcement just a few days before the Indy 500....

[Phoenix1]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I think there is some confusion as to the Ford/Cosworth "support" in OWRS. Essentially these engines are leased. Cosworth does the maintenance. It is a business transaction that almost anyone with a sophisticated shop can do - there is no "development" going on.

In brief;

Cosworth was sold off last year and KK of OWSR ownership bought up the cosworth name and business. The engines in the ChampCar is a Cosworth badged up as a Ford (see F1 and Sauber Petronas or if I understand correctly the GM car is a cosworth right?)

Ford now pay for the name on the engine (as they always did via a lease program of some variety). The engines I presume will be developed on a continuing bases. Cosworth afterall now have no Ford management and can get back to what they are good at.

[BootsOntheSide]

OWRS has been trying to control series costs, so don't expect much engine development in the near future, as logna s the racing is fast enough to appeal to its audience.

[jock25]

Even if stock engines are introduced and that maintains a supply of engines the question still remains whether the manufacturers will still have a sizeable interest (e.g. funding). I remember reading recently comments from the Panther Racing management that the subsidies going to the likes of AGR are allowing them to sell sponsorship packages for $1-2million that smallers teams (i.e. Panther) need to sell for $4-5million.

Even if costs get back under control what appetite is there amongst sponsors if they are no longer going to get cut-price deals? I think that is my main concern with regards to either Honda/Toyota completely leaving or at best, downsizing their involvement.

I hate to make the comparison but the CCWS, with controlled costs and effectively stock engines are not exactly fighting off the prospective sponsors with a big stick!?!

[Tim Northcutt]

That is why I believe giving the teams the "choice" of "Option 1" or "Option 2" will work...

Option 1 is structured to keep Honda and Toyota doing their thing...with their clients and with their teams...

Option 2 is for the smaller guys who have been squeezed out in the wake of the engine rules changes to bring Honda and Toyota...

[jock25]

I'm still unconvinced - I can't envisage a set-up that can keep a lid on costs (and help the original IRL teams) and allow manufacturers to compete. Perhaps Chevy is the key - providing competion to justify Honda's continued involvement and all against the backdrop of cheaper engine costs.
I personally hope all three stay in a way that will allow smaller teams to challenge ( i still can't forget the first few laps at Phoenix and the way Kanaan cut through half the field as if they were stationary)

[Tim Northcutt]

The scenario I have outlined is what Indy cars did in the early 1980s...and it actually worked...

The larger displacement engines would be a little heavier, but they would have a little more power...

and teams that were in this Series in the early years had relationships with engine builders like I've described above....

I do feel that it would work....

[drdisque]

sounds to me like Honda and Toyota are being intentionally vague about their intention to continue in order to put pressure on the IRL to come out with a 2007 Engine Package that is written in their best interests. If they committed to 2007+ then the IRL would have no pressure to appease them with their rules.

[Snrub]

I don't know if the majority of people are really going to care about the ins and outs of how a stock block or "kit" is being developed. I do think that moving in this direction is a particularly good idea.

To those saying that Kirby's article was pulled because it was false, can you back that up?

We've discussed Miller several times in the past and most of us agree that he's even handed. Yes he's now being paid by Champ Car and that is a conflict of interest, but so far he's kept his integrity in check. As for Kirby, I don't see him as substantially different. Actually I think Champ Car has done an interesting thing with their website where they're basically ensuring that articles are written, but they're not you're typical self-generated press. How many companies print material with big critisims of themselves on their website?

[trow]

The show must go on!

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Not really. What if someone came in and wrote a big check to buy your beloved Indy 500 out from under you, how would you feel?

I find it ironic the IRL community has panned "street parades" for years, now it's looked upon as the saving grace of the IRL.

I think you misread me mountainstar. I think the whole stuation is ridiculous on both sides. I'm actually agreeing with you, which I know is amazing in itself!

I'm one of the few around here who liked the IRL just the way it was, warts and all! I want to see them doing ovals, not street and road course racing. There are plenty of series out there that already do that. What we had was unique and I believed in the vision that TG espoused, but that seem's pretty well dead and buried now. Hardly anything from the original vision is left these days. It's pretty apparent with this LB battle, and Canadian race talk, that the IRL plans to make road/street racing a major part of the series.

I guess I'll have to learn to like the new CARTII, ooops, I mean IRL ...

[Snrub]

For the most part the two series have stayed out of each other's faces regarding events (I know there have been some decent sized fights). We all know OW has been devistated by the split, if they're in each other's faces, where does it end? This seems to set a dangerous precedent. Are they going to start offering 7-8 figure incentives in a bidding war to get promoters/tracks to run their series? Both series owners have forked out ungodly sums of money to keep their series going, why escalate it further?

So far it's mostly been the IRL trying to grab Champ Car venues, but is there any reason Champ Car couldn't fire a shot accross TG's bow and take one of the successful oval races that the IRL has developed? Muzza recent posted some information in the CC forum regarding Ganassi that is bad news for the IRL. If the IRL becomes a little weaker, will the two series simply go into a battle to destroy each other?

Also, does anyone know exactly how the IRL got involved in each one of the ex-Champ Car tracks they currently run on?

[Hazza]

I'll only answer what I know:

Nazereth is Penseke's track.
California and Phoenix are both run by the same company, and Phoenix was one of the original IRL circuits.
Motegi is a no brainer.

And i'm not sure about homestead.
I think Michigan went when it was Dropped by CART and Texas dosen't count as that was CART encroaching on IRL territory.

[JohnSSC]

I do not believe that he still does, but wasn't Penske an owner of Michigan at one point?

[paul-collins]

ISC owns Fontana, Phoenix, Homestead, Nazareth... Of those, all but Homestead were Penske tracks before he merged his track interests with ISC.

Bruton Smith (SMI) owns Texas, same guy who owns Sears Point..

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by Snrub

For the most part the two series have stayed out of each other's faces regarding events (I know there have been some decent sized fights). We all know OW has been devistated by the split, if they're in each other's faces, where does it end? This seems to set a dangerous precedent. Are they going to start offering 7-8 figure incentives in a bidding war to get promoters/tracks to run their series? Both series owners have forked out ungodly sums of money to keep their series going, why escalate it further?

It seem's to me that TG and the IRL are in the process of making the final push on OWRS. There going after a real CC stronghold in LB, maybe the last stronghold they have left in the States. If that goes IRL, CC could really be done here. Then, if successful, I'm sure a Canadian and Mexican street race will be next.

I have to say though, that this fight is taking its toll. As a hard-core open wheel guy, and an IRL fan, I should be happy that we "seem" to have the upper hand, but even I'm tiring of this fight. The lack of any semblance of stability, or plan, is making it really tough to stay motivated for this type of racing. The fact that we are still talking about stuff like this during the middle of the racing season, is dis-heartning. The fact that so many IRL fans want to see these street races, and road courses, makes me wonder why they were IRL fans in the first place. Also, the fact that we have to ditch the "vision" to have any chance of winning this war, make's me wonder what exactly a victory will mean to a guy like me that believed in that vision...

Just gettin alittle frustrated...

[Kicking-back]

The "vision" was never set in stone - this has only ever really been about getting control of a CART-style series.