Speculation on Honda/Toyota leaving IRL

[paul-collins]

GP Racer, I'd suspect many of your IRL fans are really just race fans who worship the 500.

I know that, as a CART fan, I respected the mix of ovals and road courses, but the only oval that really moved me was the 500. Perhaps IRL fans have always liked road courses but the 500 was too important for them to give up?

(I can't say road courses and street courses as if they're different things - that's a joke just to make the racing sound more diverse as far as I'm concerned).

[trow]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

The "vision" was never set in stone - this has only ever really been about getting control of a CART-style series.

Show me a "Vision" that's set in stone, and I'll show you a rock at the bottom of the English Channel!

"CART style series?" Guys, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway brought Formula racing notoriety in the states. CART started in 1979 because the ownership saw an opportunity to seize control of arguably the worlds most powerful racing entity. How people seem to forget that is beyond me. I don't believe that this was about Tony getting control for control-sake. CART had maneuvered through several CEO's in a very short period of time, and as a company showed NO stability or future because each team owner could amend the rules when convenient. CART killed CART. Why is that so hard to understand? This isn't a swipe at CART, or Champcar. This is just reality if folks have a memory longer than 10 years. I know because I grew up here in Indianapolis and I have seen CART's behaviour through its last 25 years. CART started because the owners saw a profit to be had. The IRL started because they saw a profit to be had, and more importantly, wanted the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and the Indianapolis 500 to be controlled by people who had its best interests at heart for the future of IndyCars.

Remember, CART couped on USAC, and then reaped the benfits of notoriety from the track. The IRL just took control of its own property and expanded on it!

This is not a flame, and hopefully the mods will see that! It's reality!

[Snrub]

Yes CART killed CART, but we all know the split was a huge part too.

I think I'd agree with the sentiments that the IRL had the upperhand in 2004, but look to 2006 (assume CC managed to keep LB), I don't know that the same can be said. CC has forward momentum and imagine the IRL may be minus Ganassi and Toyota. Even without LB, I don't know that you could call Champ Car dead or the IRL the victor. It will also be interesting to see how the race and TV audiences grow/shrink this year. I suspect you'll see CC improving, I'm not sure what to expect for the IRL, I'm guessing flat TV ratings and some increase in race attenance.

[JohnSSC]

Good post trow. I remember USAC thriving in the days before CART - seems the common thread is that the desire for profit is probably the single most effective Series-killer.

We have all been losers these last 10 years and hopefully there will be an end to it soon.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Good post trow. I remember USAC thriving in the days before CART - seems the common thread is that the desire for profit is probably the single most effective Series-killer.

We have all been losers these last 10 years and hopefully there will be an end to it soon.

I disagree. USAC was not thriving at all. It consisted of the Indy 500 and a bunch of poorly supported and promoted races. That's why the car owners took action and I can't blame them a bit.

By the mid 90's CART had household names(Rahal, Fittipaldi, Andretti, Unser, Mansell, etc.), a strong and VERY profitable tv package and ratings, a good balance of manufacturers, good sponsors, packed venues.

What kills series is not the desire for profit, it's quite the opposite. It's STUPID business decisions that kill companies and in this case racing series. Instead of working from within Indycar and gradually building influence and respect(like maybe starting an All-American Indycar team), TG threw the toys from the pram and formed another upstart series to fulfill his egomaniacal desires. It's like Pat Patrick said that TG walked into a CART board meeting, did a 5 minute presentation and then expected the board to hand him control of Indycar. Now if your Patrick, and you've run successful Indycar teams for years and you're an extremely successful businessman, are you going to hand the keys to a mega million dollar business over to someone like TG who had zero business experience, who spent all his time from his late teens until he assumed control of the speedway partying and tearing up the town and someone who showed no respect to anyone? Hmmm....

If you recall Bernie E. in F1 spent almost 20 years making tea at meetings and listening while gradually building up his influence and respect within the sport. He is now one of the richest men in the UK and his wealth was not inherited but earned though hard work over 50 Years. Quite the contrast to Tony George.

Unfortunately for the IRL, they took the poison pill of manufacturer dollars and power and allowed it to control them rather than the other way around. As I said before and quite frankly, I don't think Honda and Toyota give a flip about what the new engine rules are, it's all going to come down to their return on investment in the marketplace. I think alot of IRL fans were jumping for joy when Penske, Ganassi, Rahal, Fernandez, etc. bailed on CART. But they failed to realize none of these people cared about the series, they were just nomads following the money. And when the cash cow runs out in the IRL, they'll be off to Nascab, Grand am, Alms, etc. just following the money.

To me, it's all very sad, because if there is a "winner" and one series fails, it will be a hollow victory, as it will take years to return open wheel racing to the prominent position it once held.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

By the mid 90's CART had household names(Rahal, Fittipaldi, Andretti, Unser, Mansell, etc.), a strong and VERY profitable tv package and ratings, a good balance of manufacturers, good sponsors, packed venues.

Late 80's/early 90's, perhaps, but by the mid 90's CART had lost momentum and NASCAR had well and truly passed CART in terms of overall popularity already (yes, BEFORE the split).

One thing's for certain though - north American open-wheel racing will never reach it's former peak again, and personally I blame BOTH the egos at CART/Champ Car as well as TG, because blaming just either one is naive.

[Hazza]

Eaxctly! You could say that if CART haddn't shot itself in the foot then it would've left the IRL as the "Other" league for has beens and who ares. But then again if TG haddn't of split then there would still be a strong core for CART even if it did make a sucsession of silly mistakes.

[JohnSSC]

mountainstar, USAC was very successful for a long time. That is what I was talking about. Not just the days that immediately led to the formation of CART.

The stupid business decisions have mostly revolved around trying to make more $$ so I will stand by my contention that racing Series are not a real good profit center.

A lot of garbage happened to poison the well long before TG and the revolving door of CART CEOs of the Week brought the curtain down on the existence of a single open wheel series.

And just as Toyota and Honda don't give a flip now about the IRL - they didn't give a flip about CART, either. Too bad TG did not learn from watching CART take their own poison pill in manufacturer $$.

[GP Racer]

You can also say, that if the CART CEO Of The Week,(good one John!) Heitzler at the time, didn't try to marginalize the Indy 500, thereby marginalizing TG, the split probably would have never happened either. Being the owner of the Speedway, and the greatest race in the world, he deserved better treatment and a better deal than he was getting from CART owners.

If you were TG, and your whole life revolved around this great race, and you saw it being threatened, wouldn't you, or anyone, not have taken some action to protect it? It seem's to me the split could have been easily avoided.

We'll soon see if the manufacturers were indeed the poison pill though. The future, that once seemed so promising, is now looking very cloudy...

[fazzaz]

Thank you, GP, for pointing out a usually overlooked point. The CART leadership went to Tony George demanding a number of changes to the Indy 500, and increased control for them. George reacted in (what was no doubt to him) a logical way to defend the value of a family asset and a tradition. One doesn't have to defend the various IRL mistakes such as 25/8 to understand George's motivation.

And for that matter, USAC was strong, and had a strong series in the Championship Trail -- the only major national racing series in the U.S. (NASCAR was a relatively small regional series at best). When the plane crash in Indiana killed the USAC leadership it damaged USAC so badly that it never really recovered.

And since I'm on an historical rant, the first-ever race I attended was at the Indiana State Fairgrounds one mile oval, originally a trotting track (for racing sulkies). It was in 1946, and I saw a driver killed, something I remember almost 60 years later. The Hoosier Hundred ran there for years as part of the Championship Trail, in August as I recall. It was not tied to the Speedway other than by proximity.

If -- big if -- Champ Car moves off-shore as it seems to want to do and the IRL fails because the manufacturers pull out, the George/Hulman family will still have the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, with a major NASCAR event and the U.S.G.P.

If all that happens, and there's no open wheel racing of significance in the U.S., did we win?

[trow]

As long as there's an oval at 16th and Georgetown Rd., there will be IndyCars running on a track near you!

The cars at the moment are out of price range BECAUSE of T & H's involvement. Two things: If T & H goes away and we have an efficient motor take their place the costs will decrease. Kind of a catch 22. Also, if they change the engine setups, which I hear is in the works and will be announced at Indy, then we will get back to having a series that is sought after because of it's affordability and competition. There's no doubt in my mind there are literally hundreds of young cart'ers and sprinters who would love to make a name in IndyCars. Even though some of the guys in IndyCars have egos a mile wide, they won't be racing in another 15 years at most!

The idea of this all hinging on T & H's involvement for the series to survive is pidgeon-holed thinking at best. They are here now and have had the exact opposite effect than what IndyCar folks thought they'd have, but if I was a bettin man, I'd say those days are coming to a screaching halt.

[drdisque]

ya, people seem to forget that when IRL essentially had a single engine supplier (olds) they had BETTER car counts at the events. Sure, there was no Penske or Ganassi, but I'd still rather see 26 cars at all the races than 20 with Penske and Ganassi

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

You can also say, that if the CART CEO Of The Week,(good one John!) Heitzler at the time, didn't try to marginalize the Indy 500, thereby marginalizing TG, the split probably would have never happened either. Being the owner of the Speedway, and the greatest race in the world, he deserved better treatment and a better deal than he was getting from CART owners.

If you were TG, and your whole life revolved around this great race, and you saw it being threatened, wouldn't you, or anyone, not have taken some action to protect it? It seem's to me the split could have been easily avoided.

We'll soon see if the manufacturers were indeed the poison pill though. The future, that once seemed so promising, is now looking very cloudy...

Lets get the facts straight. Andrew Craig was CART CEO from 1994-2000, Heitzler was nowhere near the picture until 2001.

The Indy 500 was never threatened. He was getting the best treatment and the best deal. HE NICKEL AND DIMES EVERY TEAM AT THE SPEEDWAY FOR EVERY LITTLE THING FROM FOOD TO RENTAL FEES. Except now the teams are only there for two weeks instead of three or four. It's the teams that need the better deal rather than being raked over a barrel for the "privilege" of racing in the Indy 500. And let's not forget the there used to be packed crowds the whole month of May. The place by comparision is a ghost town now until race day.

Let's keep in mind that Mr. George demanded from the CART board that he be handed the reins of CART and that a new board be formed with him as the new chief. Again, would you hand your company over to a 30 year old that is completely clueless? This angle of playing Tony George as a victim is totally out of touch with reality. Get the violins out.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Late 80's/early 90's, perhaps, but by the mid 90's CART had lost momentum and NASCAR had well and truly passed CART in terms of overall popularity already (yes, BEFORE the split).

One thing's for certain though - north American open-wheel racing will never reach it's former peak again, and personally I blame BOTH the egos at CART/Champ Car as well as TG, because blaming just either one is naive.

Demographics from 1994 show that Nascar had twice as many fans as Indycar, but that Indycar fans had double the household income. I'm sure that Nascar would have continued it's growth regardless of what happened with Indycar. But to say the open wheel racing can never reach it's peak again is negative. With proper management and a good product it can.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

mountainstar, USAC was very successful for a long time. That is what I was talking about. Not just the days that immediately led to the formation of CART.

If that's the case, can you name a few USAC races other than Indy from the 60's and 70's that packed the stands consistantly every year? Everyone knew at the time all USAC cared about was the 500 and little else. Yes I'll agree that the plane crash caused problems with USAC, but the fixation on the 500 would not have changed.

If you recall, about the same time in F1, FOCA was formed to stand for the owners interests, as F1 was a mismanaged glob of championship and non-championship races with varying degrees of compensation and organization.

[JohnSSC]

Well mountainstar, I would have to go back and look 'em up as most of the tracks are gone, but Eldora and Phoenix spring to mind.

The dirt tracks on the USAC trail did pack them in on a regular basis - it is a shame I can't remember the track names and it is a real shame a lot of folks think open wheel was only popular during the CART years.

Open wheel was pretty big when the AAA ran it before USAC came along...

And by the way - the importance of The 500 was not (and is not) a "fixation." It was THE race. World wide. Whatever it's stature now, trivializing the history and importance of the race, not to mention the titanic competitive struggles that took place there, is a dis-service to the great talents that labored (and sometimes died) there.

I would like to see one of you all tell Jim Hurtebiese that he was just "fixated." Or any Unser. Or the Andretti brothers. Or AJ.

Be interesting to hear the reply.

[mountainstar]

Phoenix was always empty. I remember Mario saying there were more rattlesnakes around than fans in the USAC days at Phoenix.

I would not disagree at all with the stature of the old 500 and am certainly not trivializing it all. I'm saying from a business perspective that USAC focused on the 500 rather than the series as a whole and car owners and drivers were losing out on not having a proper championship.

Today going though some magazines I was throwing out I came across an article from Sept 2004 Motorsport about Bobby Allison. Allison raced at the 500 twice.

circa 1973 Roger Penske to Allison- "You've got to try an Indycar"
Allison- "I don't wanna try an Indycar. Indycars had one race a year, the Indy 500 which was incredible, but the rest of the races were poorly attended; I liked the Nascar deal, racing in front of full grandstands 40 times a year"

circa 1975 quote "Allison led a lap at Indy before the Mclarens gearbox forced him out. He was also entered in a handful of other races and again was unimpressed by the empty stands".

In regards to your last comment John, to each his own. It isn't my place to judge peoples likes or dislikes. To some, Indy is hallowed ground and the month of may is what you live for. To me Bathurst is the place. I'd take a Bathurst 1000 win any day over Indy. Regarding AJ, I deal with grumpy old grizzly bears like him all the time and have no problem mouthing off to him in person. The results might make the news, but there you go.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

But to say the open wheel racing can never reach it's peak again is negative. With proper management and a good product it can.

No, it's the truth. If either side today would come out the winner, it would still not be enough to bring it back:

If the OWRS boys become victorious, we'll have a championship consisting of 90% street circuits and boring road courses in places where big crowds are guaranteed. US drivers? Forget it, perhaps one or two. Indy? Don't count on it. Would also alienate a rather big number of fans who don't like the sound of OWRS' "sophisticated version" of north-american open-wheel racing.

If TG becomes victorious, we'd probably get a more balanced schedule (and DEFINITELY more ovals + non-boring road courses), but fuglier cars (the dallaras in particular look like horse-****) and also alienating the "sophisticated" open-wheel fans.

So it's a no-win situation.

Best thing would probably be if both collapsed and a third-party powerhouse came in and took over, one that wouldn't allow the manufacturers and big-ego team owners to mess around.

Or do it like Mario Andretti suggested:

"The only answer right now for things to come around, for both sides to find an answer, is for both sides to maintain enough equity in themselves so they can maintain autonomy. Each side has something to offer," he said. "Each side separately does not have enough to be a force in this sport, to be anywhere where they used to be."

Andretti proposes treating the IRL (with its mostly ovals regimen) and Champ Car (mostly street and road courses) like conferences in the NFL. The series would have three to five common races - including Indianapolis - to determine a unified champion and still crown separate champions with points from their own events.

"If you combine the two series at Indianapolis you will have almost 40 bona fide cars competing for 33 places," he said. "Back to the glory days."

Too bad Mario Andretti isn't the all-mighty ruler among all things open-wheel racing, because he's one of those making most sense these days.

(On a side-note, I really, really think we need a separate forum-section somewhere which freely allows unification talks in all shapes and forms).

[BootsOntheSide]

That's a great idea from Mario, although the issue is which cars the united races are ran with? Smaller ChampCar teams would have no option of buying IRL cars for just 2-5 races, and I doubt it's possible to set up a ballast system where both sets of cars can race against each other competitively.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

That's a great idea from Mario, although the issue is which cars the united races are ran with? Smaller ChampCar teams would have no option of buying IRL cars for just 2-5 races, and I doubt it's possible to set up a ballast system where both sets of cars can race against each other competitively.

Either they would need to come up with a set of regulations that allow for both types of machinery, or they would have to sit down and agree on a common formula (which would be possible if either side wasn't so darn hard-headed and would be willing to compromise).

[indycool]

I've now read all five pages of this at one sitting. A few points:

1. Kirby resigned after 32 years with Autosport at the end of March. He has been on the CART/CCWS payroll for website writing for several years. Miller has, too, with the exception of '04. So when Kirby spouts off on the CCWS website about Toyota and Ganassi, he is a CCWS employee speaking on the CCWS website. He is no longer a journalist and should not be considered one.

2. Long Beach is not going to make a decision on sanctioning body until it figures out what the picture is. As Michaelian said, something to the effect of "we want to see where these series are going." That picture is not going to be clear until the '07 IRL specs are announced and see what manufacturers are "in."

3. Toyota, Ganassi, Penske, Honda, Chevrolet.....none of them can say at this point whether they'll be involved in '07 and beyond or not until those specs are announced. Many CART/CCWS supporters have said Toyota and Honda are leaving ever since they joined the IRL. Now all this comes out because Kirby spouts off. Baloney.

4. To think or say that Toyota, Honda and Chevrolet -- or other manufacturers -- are not part of the discussion process on the new specs would not be realistic. To say the teams haven't been a part of the discussions would not be realistic. There may be "deal-breakers" for some in these discussions and negotiations but we don't know THAT there are and if so, we don't know WHAT they are. But it would be pretty dumb to think that all of 'em aren't trying to find a realistic medium to float the boat.

5. The cards will be on the table when the '07 specs are announced. I'd expect some manufacturers to be announced at the same time. Whatever gets announced then will have an impact on Long Beach's decision. Whatever gets announced then will have an impact on team decisions. Whatever gets announced then will not have an impact we can see for another 1 3/4 seasons and a lot can happen in that length of time, too.

[Mike.ca]

Indycool,

A few responses to the points you made:

1. I have been reading Gordon Kirby's work since 1968. He was one of the best auto racing journalists in the business. Are we to believe that the moment he accepted a cheque from CART or CCWS all of his personal standards of intellectual integrity suddenly vanished and he thought "I'm working for CART/CCWS now, I'll just start spreading lies about the IRL"? Somehow I doubt it. He may not be a working journalist anymore but I suspect that he is still a man of some personal integrity. Kirby developed sources at Honda and Toyota when they were in Champ Car. He is probably still in touch with many of them. As you know, the rumours about Honda, Toyota and Chevrolet have been floating around for some time now. Gordon Kirby did not start the ball rolling, though he probably has better contacts than those who did (or anyone on any of the internet racing forums).

2. Agreed

3. Agreed. But I would also point out that many IRL supporters have been spreading the same rumours for some time now - long before Kirby made his statement. Many of them even welcome the departure of Toyota and Honda.

4. Agreed. But with a caveat: we also know that sometimes, due to competing interests, differnt priorities, etc., mutually agreeable arrangements cannot be arrived at. CART found that out when it tried to come up with a new engine formula. Beyond the matter of the IRL's next engine format, one has to consider the possibility that one or more of the current manufacturers may choose to leave anyway - perhaps because they feel that there money would be better spent outside of the moribund and fractuous worrl of open wheel racing. There are alternatives that do not involve either the IRL or CCWS.

5. Agreed.

[Dennis H.]

Miller said tonight that the Kirby report about Ganassi is not true, so at least we have proof that one of two will end up being a liar.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Let's keep in mind that Mr. George demanded from the CART board that he be handed the reins of CART and that a new board be formed with him as the new chief. Again, would you hand your company over to a 30 year old that is completely clueless? This angle of playing Tony George as a victim is totally out of touch with reality. Get the violins out.

I wasn't going to bother responding to this, but last night's Windtunnel guest, Tommy Kendall, said the exact same thing as I did about how TG was mistreated, and mishandled by the owners of CART. He said, like I did, that the CART owners easily could have done something, anything, to keep TG placated and happy, to keep him from splitting off, but they blew totally blew it. He said, like I did, that being the owner of the greatest race in the world, he felt he needed to protect what was handed down to him, and he did it by creating his own series.

Now, how about them violins?

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

being the owner of the greatest race in the world, he felt he needed to protect what was handed down to him, and he did it by creating his own series.

Did it work? I'm not disagreeing with the causes mentioned, but I'm not going feel sorry for TG.