Speculation on Honda/Toyota leaving IRL

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by Snrub

Did it work? I'm not disagreeing with the causes mentioned, but I'm not going feel sorry for TG.

Well, we really don't know if it worked, because we don't know what the race would look like today had CART stuck around. Didn't Craig say that Indy was just another race, or it wasn't sacrosanct, or something to that effect?

So while the 500 may have lost some luster, at least it's still here...

[Snrub]

No one would have been stupid enough to truely diminish Indy. What exactly would you expect Craig to say given the situation? "Man, we're up the creek!"

Semi-side note: In retrospect I'm a little surprised that the US 500 fell so flat on its face. Perhaps CART really over-estimated the strength of their series when it truth it had weaknesses. Not a 100% fair comparison, but imagine if Nascar suddently didn't have the Daytona 500, but it was run by IRL and/or CC drivers in stock cars while the Nascar drivers were at a rival 500 mile race. Do you think the Daytona 500 would mean anything to Nascar fans?

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Snrub

Not a 100% fair comparison, but imagine if Nascar suddently didn't have the Daytona 500, but it was run by IRL and/or CC drivers in stock cars while the Nascar drivers were at a rival 500 mile race. Do you think the Daytona 500 would mean anything to Nascar fans?

The key difference in that scenario is that the Daytona 500 has always been part of the NASCAR Grand National/Winston Cup/NEXTEL Cup Series since the first race in 1959, unlike the Indianapolis 500 which has seen several different sanctioning bodies. Stability rules, but unfortunately the North American open-wheel scene has never fully grasped this. I mean, to put it into perspective - the NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Series is even older than Formula 1, as a championship. Makes you think, doesn't it?

So as you say, no, it's not really a 100% fair comparison

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by Snrub

No one would have been stupid enough to truely diminish Indy. What exactly would you expect Craig to say given the situation? "Man, we're up the creek!"

That was exactly the time that Craig should have said something to the effect of - "The Indianapolis Speedway is a national shrine and the Indy 500 is a sacred race. We will not now, nor ever, diminish its importance to open wheel racing in America, and we assure Mr. George that we have nothing but the utmost respect and reverance for the the Greatest Spectacle In Motor Racing". Remember, there was no split until Craig said that Indy wasn't sacrosanct!

Now something that simple might have kept TG from splitting off!

[Snrub]

I'm operating under some presumptions here, but didn't Craig make that statement after TG had already drawn the line in the sand? That's all I was getting at. If the line hadn't been drawn, then I would agree with you.

[GP Racer]

Well, hopefully these two notes in the Press-Telegram should help quell all the rumors that everyone is bailing on the IRL. From paddocktalk -

With the rumors of Toyota leaving the IRL, with Penske announcing a deal with Porsche in ALMS, and with Gordon Kirby indicating that Ganassi was to close his shop.....

Both the Penske organization, and the Ganassi organization were rumored to be dropping their IRL programs.

According to the Press-Telegram neither will. The paper states that, "Representatives from both teams strongly deny" they are leaving the IRL.

I've been waiting for word from these two camps, and now we have it! Has Gordon Kirby been fired yet?

And :

How many rumors have been run indicating that Toyota is bailing from the IRL so that they can focus on a NASCAR effort ?

Well, Toyota isn't leaving... yet.

A story in the Press-Telegram is quoting Toyota's Les Unger, Toyota's national motorsports manager, who had this to say on the subject, "All we know for sure at this point in time is that we signed a contract extension that will keep us in the IRL as an engine supplier through the end of 2006."

Maybe Toyota see's an IRL engine formula coming up that they might be interested in?

I guess the fat lady ain't singing yet!

[brihev]

On Wind Tunnel on 4-24-05, they were saying that Toyota was looking into building an engine for sprint cars.

[gttouring]

No real secret- it has been Toyota's plan to be a crate engine supplier as dodge and GM and Ford are, to weekend racers,Staurday feature guys, and dirt trackers. the "top Down" effort as dodge has done was all in the works, make a nascar motor, and trickle it down after it has recieved its "props" and a 4th crate supplier, from v8 dirtcars, sprints and Modifieds, to 4 banger midgets....
now will they leave the IRL or not

[GP Racer]

I heard this on Windtunnel also, and for now, I'm looking at this Toyota sprint car program as a positive for us.

If they stay in the IRL, the series would finally have an outlet to draw the sprint car drivers into the IRL. There could be sprint car drivers receiving Toyota money, and when ready could move up to the IRL and drive for Toyota teams. It would be a natural move-up for some of these guys.

It all hinges on if Toyota stays in the IRL though, like gttouring said. If they go Cup racing, then these same drivers could move-up there instead. But for now, it sounds good!

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

I heard this on Windtunnel also, and for now, I'm looking at this Toyota sprint car program as a positive for us.

If they stay in the IRL, the series would finally have an outlet to draw the sprint car drivers into the IRL. There could be sprint car drivers receiving Toyota money, and when ready could move up to the IRL and drive for Toyota teams. It would be a natural move-up for some of these guys.

It all hinges on if Toyota stays in the IRL though, like gttouring said. If they go Cup racing, then these same drivers could move-up there instead. But for now, it sounds good!

All the short oval trackers are going NASCAR now. That's where the money is.

I don't see the current IRL team owners hiring sprint guys. Name the last USAC or Sprint guy that got a full time ride in the IRL or even one that was successful in recent years. Why did Ganassi hire Briscoe for instance? An Australian minor leaguer euro formula car guy that had never seen an oval in his life? Nothing against Briscoe, but something has gone wrong here.

[rustyfan]

On the topic of Toyota and NASCAR...

Toyota has asked NASCAR about the deadline for submitting car and engine designs for the Busch Series, and while nothing has been submitted yet, there is still a chance they might indeed enter the Busch Series for 2006.

Should they decide to do so they will take a slightly different path than Dodge who went straight from the Craftsman Truck series to the NEXTEL Cup Series a few years ago.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

All the short oval trackers are going NASCAR now. That's where the money is.

I don't see the current IRL team owners hiring sprint guys. Name the last USAC or Sprint guy that got a full time ride in the IRL or even one that was successful in recent years. Why did Ganassi hire Briscoe for instance? An Australian minor leaguer euro formula car guy that had never seen an oval in his life? Nothing against Briscoe, but something has gone wrong here.

No one was more ticked off then me, when Ganassi hired Briscoe. That was just another case of an unknown driver to most IRL fans, landing a top ride ahead of drivers that worked harder, and deserved it more IMO. Moves like that are not helping this series grow, as it just further alienates fans, and are giving little hope for young drivers trying to go IndyCar racing through karting and IPS.

I agree with you, that most of the top teams - former CART teams - would not hire any sprint car drivers as it stands now. These teams are not known for doing what's right for the overall good of a series. But, if Toyota starts up a sprint car program, I can see them putting some pressure on there IRL teams to hire one of there own, kind of like what happened with Briscoe, who was a Toyota F1 protege. I can definetly see Cheever going with a sprint car driver, or perhaps Vision, or Foyt.

While not NASCAR, the IRL is still big-time racing and the Indy 500 is still a major goal for drivers. There's also a good living to made here, where salaries and purses are paid, and contracts honored. Any sprint car driver offered a ride here would be foolish to turn it away...

[Snrub]

I guess the question has to be asked, why isn't there any interest in sprint car drivers? Even if they're "all" looking towards Nascar, most aren't going to make it and some have to consider other options before hand. Look at all the European open wheelers. A lot of them realize that F1 will never happen for them and look to Champ Car or IRL as a nice alternative or alternative route.

[GP Racer]

More doubts planted that Toyota may not be leaving -

No IRL Decision by Toyota... Yet ?

For those who believe Toyota's already out of the IRL, you might want to wait before sending letters of sympathy to their IRL teams. News that NASCAR Busch negotiations continue, would seem to indicate tha Toyota's IRL future hasn't been decided.

Nor do others agree that Toyota's departure is a given.


The Winston-Salem Journal is quoting Penske Racing's Don Miller as saying, "I don't know that Toyota has made any decision on the IRL at this point. They'll probably look at it real hard before they abandon ship. But it's pretty obvious that stock-car racing is what people want to see. We're going to new venues constantly. About the only thing NASCAR hasn't been able to do is add weeks to the year."

Hmmm, Don Miller has it about right about stock cars though, doesn't he? Sad, but true...

[mountainstar]

I think it is safe to say that at least Toyota's program will change if they do stay. We know they are unhappy about subsidizing teams and we can expect the current status quo to change if they do decide to make a new engine for the 07 specs. Where that will leave current teams that are addicted to the subsidies is a good question.

[GP Racer]

I could be wrong but, I'm not sure that Toyota subsidises teams in the same way that Honda does.

Penske swears he get's nothing, and I think that if he did, he would be running a 3 car team for sure. Ganassi and RBC are so horrible that I can't believe that Toyota would be paying them either. The minnows are definetly on there own.

I'd like to see all subsidies end to level the playing field. Bigger teams may leave or cut there car counts, but I would hope that if the engine program is cheap enough, it would entice some small teams to enter or re-enter the series to make up for that. It can't be easy for a D&R or AJ Foyt to watch Tony Kannan slice through the entire field in 2 laps doing what looks like 20MPH better than they are doing! End the subsidies that help TK, and we'll see some better competition...

[mountainstar]

The TRD boss has said publicly that they do in fact subsidize teams and that Toyota is now spending as much or more than what they spent on CART. $98 million is the number I've been seeing lately as the reported spend by Toyota on the IRL. $100 million is the figure I've seen for Honda. Whatever the case a large percentage of IRL teams are getting a check and if that changes, problems for many are ahead.

As I said a few weeks ago, some of these guys like Penske, Ganassi, Rahal, Andretti, etc. are addicted to the manufacturer dollars and they're going to go where ever the cash is. If Honda for instance said we're going back to champcar with $100 million a year to spend, you can bet there would be a stampede back to cash in.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

On the topic of Toyota and NASCAR...

Toyota has asked NASCAR about the deadline for submitting car and engine designs for the Busch Series, and while nothing has been submitted yet, there is still a chance they might indeed enter the Busch Series for 2006.

Should they decide to do so they will take a slightly different path than Dodge who went straight from the Craftsman Truck series to the NEXTEL Cup Series a few years ago.

Don't forget that Dodge ran in ARCA for a long time before they went anywhere else.
When they became serious, they hired Charlie Glotbach out of retirement to drive the car.

Bob

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Don't forget that Dodge ran in ARCA for a long time before they went anywhere else.
When they became serious, they hired Charlie Glotbach out of retirement to drive the car.

Bob

Actually, Dodge scored 160 NASCAR Cup wins between 1953 and 1977. In 1985 they left NASCAR and didn't return until 2001.

As for ARCA, there have been scattered Dodge 'privateer' efforts in recent times, most notably in 1999 when there were a few Dodge Avengers used (something Dodge weren't involved in). Dodge didn't get back "for real" into the ARCA series until they entered the Cup Series though, when Dodge Intrepids started to appear in ARCA competition as well.

As for Charlie Glotzbach, he won a mere two races driving a Dodge, both in 1970.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Actually, Dodge scored 160 NASCAR Cup wins between 1953 and 1977. In 1985 they left NASCAR and didn't return until 2001.

As for ARCA, there have been scattered Dodge 'privateer' efforts in recent times, most notably in 1999 when there were a few Dodge Avengers used (something Dodge weren't involved in). Dodge didn't get back "for real" into the ARCA series until they entered the Cup Series though, when Dodge Intrepids started to appear in ARCA competition as well.

As for Charlie Glotzbach, he won a mere two races driving a Dodge, both in 1970.

Rustyfan:
Up till the mid-nineties I followed stock car racing quite closely, so I have probably forgotten more than you know; that said:

When Chrysler and its Mopar brand wanted to make an "unofficial" entry into oval track racing, ARCA was an outlet. Jerry Churchill's LeBaron caused quite a stir in 1989 when it was built at Norman Negree's North Carolina shop and tested, and eventually raced, at Atlanta. With its narrow greenhouse, this car had wind tunnel and superspeedway written all over it. This time, however, the car stuck around. In fact, Mopar cars were seen in ARCA racing through the 1998 season. Roy Payne, a driver towing all the way from Alabama for the entire ARCA schedule, not only won the rookie-of-the-year, but also a top ten points finish. Not to be outdone, former ARCA Champ (1989) Bob Keselowski brought his Black LeBaron home second in points and led that year's event winners with four. The Mopar move continued with a fervor and was recently extended by Roger Blackstock, driving an Avenger and nabbing himself a few poles along the way.

I am well aware of when the Mopar boys quit NASCAR (Buddy Arrington was the last hold-out. His last car was an Imperial)
I mentioned Charlie because in an interview, many years ago, he said he was happily retired when they came to him to drive the car.

Mopar was in ARCA from 1989 to 1998, the first time, it was where Chrysler relearned what they had forgotten.

Bob

[JohnSSC]

Wow! Buddy Arrington! It has been a looooong time since I heard his name!

Waaay off topic, but NASCAR really put the screws to Mopar when they outlawed the hemi engine. I can still see those Superbirds now though with King Richard and I believe Pete Hamilton running the wheels off the things. Those were the days!

Thanks Bob!

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Mopar was in ARCA from 1989 to 1998, the first time, it was where Chrysler relearned what they had forgotten.

Bob

One has to wonder how much Dodge learned when they were basically nowhere in ARCA during 1995-1998 (unlike these days where you have multiple Dodge efforts running full-time) - at least in the results listings I came across. I should be able to dig up quite a few 1989-1994 race results from various stock car mags I have at home as well, but if the 1995-1998 results I found are any indication I'm not sure I'll be able for find a proper full-time effort during those years either.

Personally I believe Dodge had a lot more use of its Craftsman Truck Series program launched in 1995, and I'm quite sceptical about how much they might have "learned" from ARCA. Not to mention John Wehrly, involved in the 1995 Dodge CTS entry, has said in an interview that Dodge had to learn everything from scratch while preparing for the CTS.

Anyway, while Dodge might have been "involved" in ARCA on paper, I think that is a truth with some modifications. At least when it comes to the mid- to late 90's.