New Lola, SLC, Dallara and Dome F3 cars

JF3 · 23 Mar 2006, 13:05 (Ref:1558500)

I found high resolution photo of SLC R1 and Lola B06/3.

Both will run in RECARO F3.
Do you think SLC or Lola can beat Dallara?

climb · 23 Mar 2006, 14:05 (Ref:1558550)

I'm very cusrious about Lola, whereas I don't think SLC can do much; there's also a problem of drivers: the SLC ones were largely beaten in recent tests by drivers (on Dallaras) of the italian championship, which are supposed to be way slower than those who'll run the Recaro CUP.

Mekola · 23 Mar 2006, 21:16 (Ref:1558990)

It was an SLC chassis in the Euro F3 last year, driven by Fabio Carbone.

**bella** · 23 Mar 2006, 21:23 (Ref:1558994)

the slc was a complete dog of a car, and if it's continued, it'd be a terrible waste of resources for anyone who got hold of it or chose to run it.

**FIRE** · 23 Mar 2006, 21:38 (Ref:1559012)

I have always thought the SLC was developed by Signature themself.

ss_collins · 23 Mar 2006, 21:46 (Ref:1559017)

maybe it was just an aero problem - SLC are well capable of making a decent chassis (Courage LC's I believe). We shall see, I'm curious as to the fate of the Mygale - anyone know?

Zandbak · 23 Mar 2006, 22:22 (Ref:1559048)

And the Martini and Ligier F3 cars.............

climb · 24 Mar 2006, 07:13 (Ref:1559371)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss_collins

maybe it was just an aero problem - SLC are well capable of making a decent chassis ...

Right , particularly considering that SLC know perfectly how a Dallara chassis is done.

ss_collins · 24 Mar 2006, 11:22 (Ref:1559492)

Ligier own Martini. the JS47 (F3) was testing last week - I think they had been concentrating on the JS49 (LMP3) which has been selling like hot cakes.

silente · 10 Apr 2006, 07:40 (Ref:1575251)

Remember that Slc is a group of ATR, that made chassis for a lot of constructors, like dallara. And it's not so difficult to find information about Dallara from teams which had always run with that car.

I think SLC can have an interesting championship...

ss_collins · 10 Apr 2006, 16:14 (Ref:1577760)

I should have some mega stuff in about a month as I'm going to see the Dome in Japan. I've heard its well capable of beating the 06 spec Dallara.

So it looks likely that this year in German F3 we will see 06 spec Dallara, Lola, Ligier and SLC all going head to head.

Makes the Euroseries look dull, also seeing as everyone in the euroseries is opting for the Dallara/Merc combo you wonder a bit whether its the old copycat nature of motor racing coming into play ("well he won with it last year so it must be good") I'd be amused if the Domes turned up with thier works engines and creamed the lot of them (serving them right for having no imagination)...

I hate that F3 is an open chassis formula yet its highest level championship only has one chassis (be it 304/5/6)...

I seriously belive this is because racing teams by thier very nature are very bad at embracing new things, it sound wrong but I see great new technology turned down by teams every day - then when one adopts it - they all do with out fully understanding it.

Valker · 10 Apr 2006, 16:33 (Ref:1577774)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss_collins

So it looks likely that this year in German F3 we will see 06 spec Dallara, Lola, Ligier and SLC all going head to head.

Who'll run Ligier? Nico Hülkenberg tested it but Josef Kaufmann Racing will run Dallara F306 in German F3 Cup.

There was also some rumours that Swiss Racing Team would run Mygale in German F3, but looks like they are testing Dallaras...

strider · 10 Apr 2006, 16:57 (Ref:1577796)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I should have some mega stuff in about a month as I'm going to see the Dome in Japan. I've heard its well capable of beating the 06 spec Dallara.

Hmm, possibly, but it didn't manage it in the opening two races in Japan. Perhaps you've been reading too much Dome PR material in readiness for the trip?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I hate that F3 is an open chassis formula yet its highest level championship only has one chassis (be it 304/5/6)...

I seriously belive this is because racing teams by thier very nature are very bad at embracing new things, it sound wrong but I see great new technology turned down by teams every day - then when one adopts it - they all do with out fully understanding it.

So that would explain why everyone rushed to buy Lola chassis after their car won the first two BF3 races last year then. Not.

I agree that F3 would be better if it were a true multi-chassis formula, but first someone has to prove that they have a car that can genuinely compete with a Dallara. If something emerged that could thrash the Dallara, that would be a disaster. The drivers would want new cars so they could compete, but who would pay? The teams (or some of them, at least) are already stretched financially.

On a swings and roundabouts basis I'd say the Lola was on a par with the Dallara. If a team like Carlin were to run one I'm sure it would be successful, but that will never happen because they are also the UK Dallara agents.

ss_collins · 10 Apr 2006, 17:27 (Ref:1577818)

actually I've read no dome pr stuff at all! It was quick in testing and on the pace in the races.

Theres an old racing saying "the last of the old will beat the first of the new" probably a Carroll Smithism. It basically means that teams always play it safe, but of course when the new does come on stream it will be better than the old (got it?). It does seem that the 'playing it safe' attitude means that niether Ligier or Mygale can find a team to run thier cars.

But as you say the Lola probably is the measure of the Dallara, who knows how good the Dome is - theres nothing to measure it against and there will never be a customer car (Dome are refusing to sell em - work that one out if you can). If the Ligier and Mygale don't race then who knows? I suspect they will - Ligier are capable of running a works car certainly.

A new car won't work out of the box, and in the *****y backstabbing world of F3 it will then be branded a dung heap, when in fact it could well be a superior chassis to the Dallara. But! as F3 is paid for by rich ex karters who have always followed a trend they will demand "daddy I want a Dallara with a merc in it" cos thats what all the other boys have got.

If you really want to win in motorsport - don't copy - innovate - take the pain and you eventually will become dominant. But only a works team has the ability to do this - if your car runs like a dog, rich boys daddy will get very upset and the money will stop, so tow the line and keep the customer happy.

I so hope Mike Jenvey gets the budget to play - that'll really stir it up.

strider · 10 Apr 2006, 19:25 (Ref:1577923)

I'm pleased to hear you've actually read Carroll Smith's books - thought they might be a bit stuck in the mud for you!

There should be no criticism of Dallara. They are serious constructors and do an excellent job. It's up to someone else to come along and knock them off the top of the tree. They did it to Reynard and before that Reynard did it to Ralt. These things are cycical. But Dome will never do it if they won't sell cars. That is bizarre. And Lola are missing an open goal by not backing a top team to run their chassis this year. Why should teams risk their money (or rather their drivers' money) on a car that the manufacturer is not prepared to support?

Same with the engines. Mercedes may be the current wanna-have, but before that Opel Spiess and Mugen-Honda have done very nicely, thank you, even Volkswagen earlier still. In fact NBE are not waving the white flag just yet, nor are TOM'S Toyota in Japan. At the end of the day, all the Merc has done is increase engine costs.

Mike Jenvey? Ex-sports car racer?

flor · 10 Apr 2006, 19:54 (Ref:1577941)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valker

There was also some rumours that Swiss Racing Team would run Mygale in German F3, but looks like they are testing Dallaras...

They have the 2 Mygale cars but cant find any drivers for them it seems.
I think Kaufmann will only test the Ligier cars this year.

Looking at the recent offical test data the Lola seem to be very competitive.

strider · 11 Apr 2006, 00:43 (Ref:1578133)

Yes, it's good to see the Lola - and Joey Foster - going well. Even the updated SLC seems to have found a new lease of life.

The problem is that I can't judge the overall competitiveness of German F3. There are some good teams in there now, some ex-Euroseries, some Italian, but I don't know much about the drivers, apart from Joey.

ss_collins · 11 Apr 2006, 11:51 (Ref:1578470)

I agree foxster Lola do seem to be missing a trick. By not having a top team - Dallara are masters of dominating a junior category and will be very tough to beat.

Ok dream lets do a bit of Fantasy F3 2 car team - budget for three seasons in any series and a fair bit of testing. So you can pick you drivers by talent rather than wallet.

I'd probably run a Dome chassis with Honda engine, with a joint project between Jenvey dynamics and Honda to develop it.

But seeing as you can't get a dome or a Honda I'd probably go for an unknown like the Ligier with an Opel Engine, with my own engine programme.

Drivers - definatley Formula Vee champion, engineer and uber talent Mike Jenvey (would certainly upset the establishment) as he would bring great car development skills and is a very talented driver who rarely has offs.

Then I'd look for some young hotshoe coming up but not through the oh so dull Karts/bmw/ren etc route that produces the identidriving style spikey hair rich boys that we have now... I'd possibly look to France.

Where to base the team? well as this is fantasy F3 - at the Cystal Palace top site!

**bella** · 11 Apr 2006, 12:15 (Ref:1578486)

i thought honda had done an engine for japanese f3...

Suze · 11 Apr 2006, 12:21 (Ref:1578492)

Is it not only in the two Dome cars...?

climb · 11 Apr 2006, 12:33 (Ref:1578503)

bella and suze are both right

climb · 11 Apr 2006, 12:52 (Ref:1578528)

Quote:

Originally Posted by foxy mole

...
I agree that F3 would be better if it were a true multi-chassis formula, but first someone has to prove that they have a car that can genuinely compete with a Dallara. If something emerged that could thrash the Dallara, that would be a disaster. The drivers would want new cars so they could compete, but who would pay? The teams (or some of them, at least) are already stretched financially.

On a swings and roundabouts basis I'd say the Lola was on a par with the Dallara. If a team like Carlin were to run one I'm sure it would be successful, but that will never happen because they are also the UK Dallara agents.

I'd like to add some points to the chassis competition in F3, and why are Dallara so dominant:
1) dallara have an unique experience in making F3 cars; they're not casually the leaders
2)Dallara can provide teams with a tecnhical support that nobody else can afford: it's a considerable plus
3) Dallara can provide a spare parts distribution system that nobody else could economically set up
4) Dallara have no official team, so they treat evenly every customer; even the smaller one can have an important support.

None of these points can be assured by any competitor so why should a young driver with a hardly conquered budget jeopardize it on a chassis that could be forced out of a race because no spare parts are available?

These shows why every non-dallara team is an official one or is enjoying favourable conditions (like Target team, who will get continuous development FOC from SLC) that can't be granted to everyone.

These explains why every customer team in japan have sacked dome chassis at the end of 2005.

And changing this situation is very hard, because the new competitor should do the same Dallara did in early 90's, i.e. entering with such a huge performance advantage to oblige every Dallara customer to switch in a short time.
But 15 yrs ago the task was easier cos the current standards were very low; in the meantime Dallara have constantly optimized their chassis and reaching such a favourable gap is almost impossible.

strider · 11 Apr 2006, 12:58 (Ref:1578537)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I agree foxster Lola do seem to be missing a trick. By not having a top team - Dallara are masters of dominating a junior category and will be very tough to beat.!

foxter, huh? Maybe I should see if I can get my name changed!

No doubt you could arrange that, being a big cheese hereabouts...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Ok dream lets do a bit of Fantasy F3 2 car team - budget for three seasons in any series and a fair bit of testing. So you can pick you drivers by talent rather than wallet.

I'd probably run a Dome chassis with Honda engine, with a joint project between Jenvey dynamics and Honda to develop it.

But seeing as you can't get a dome or a Honda I'd probably go for an unknown like the Ligier with an Opel Engine, with my own engine programme.

Drivers - definatley Formula Vee champion, engineer and uber talent Mike Jenvey (would certainly upset the establishment) as he would bring great car development skills and is a very talented driver who rarely has offs.

Then I'd look for some young hotshoe coming up but not through the oh so dull Karts/bmw/ren etc route that produces the identidriving style spikey hair rich boys that we have now... I'd possibly look to France.

Where to base the team? well as this is fantasy F3 - at the Cystal Palace top site!

The Fantasy F3 idea is cool. I'd probably go for a Lola as I like the people there and the car is in the ball park already.

Team? Sorry, can't say, but it's not an obvious one and I'm sure they would do a cracking job.

Drivers? How about a couple of under-funded and possibly under-rated Brits - Ben Clucas and Joey Foster. As it happens, Ben's doing very well in Australian F3 (3 wins from 4 races and it would have been 4 but for a cracked exhaust), and it looks as though there's a fair chance of Joey racing in the German championship. Neither of them is a spikey hair rich boy either!

Crystal Palace was a really challenging circuit in its time, and a bit scary. Think of the history. It was where Jochen Rindt first made his mark in the big time, and where James Hunt jumped out of an F3 car and thumped someone. Mind you, he did that more than once, even in F1, iirc.

One for Autodrome 2 perhaps? Probably not grand enough.

I'll have to think about where I'd base my team. The practical benefits of being in the Silverstone area are massive, but you might get fed up with seeing the same old faces everywhere, every day - it's nice to get away at times.

Don't know Mike Jenvey. I was thinking of Richard Jenvey, who's probably his dad!

ss_collins · 11 Apr 2006, 21:32 (Ref:1578916)

Crystal Palace in Autodrome 2? I do hate repeating myself...

Mike Jenvey is the son of Richard - both uber engineers and not bad throttle jockeys. Being in Silverstone region is good but I actually think Magny Cours and Le Mans are better these days.

The future place to be with a race team is gonna be Snet I think.

I've personally not yet been convinced by Clucas - Foster though I rekon is pretty damn good.

I think F3 drivers should only be allowed to race if they can express a relevant opionion about something or be vaguely interesting... might leave Brit F3's grid lookin a bit old mother hubbard though...

seriously though when are the spikey hair brigade gonna realise that a personality is not a bad thing. Perhaps they should all take lessons from Nick Brown and Pierre Bruneau.

silente · 12 Apr 2006, 09:00 (Ref:1579261)

Dallara is the world leader of formula 3 cars. This is true.

But this doesn't mean that nobody else can build up a good formula 3 car able to challange their supremacy.

Lola has made a good job and has good drivers in HS Technich team.

Slc is developing the most interesting car in the last years. they are improving a lot both aerodynamic and suspension with good results.

This doesn't means that surely a Lola or a Slc can win, but in my opinion we will see an interesting constructor championship.

Remember also that running with an Slc or a Lola is surely cheaper than running with a Dallara, because of the support of the constructors...

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Danny Watts to test Lola-Dome/gaz gets excited	Gaz	National & International Single Seaters	24	1 Mar 2004 13:42
Lola Dome in British F.3? (Sweeney Racing...)	Lisboa	National & International Single Seaters	19	17 Feb 2003 19:35
Dome and Lola link up	rdjones	Sportscar & GT Racing	3	26 Jun 2002 12:03
Revealing contrast to Reynard/Lola/Dallara/G-Force kit prices	Franklin	ChampCar World Series	22	24 Apr 2000 17:59