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Old 24 Jul 2017, 20:46 (Ref:3754083)   #76
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porsche962fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
not a big loss


the glory days of DTM are long gone

it's like you give the mercy shot to a dying man




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Old 24 Jul 2017, 21:04 (Ref:3754091)   #77
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So ADAC TCR DTM... then? Worked well for STCC. However, STCC didn't really stick with a type of car and DTM's thing is fastest touring car series in the world. Maybe 500hp TCR

On a serious note. The DTM was the first race I ever watched live (Brands 2012 where a Merc won) and it had such a great buzz around the track. I watched all the race highlights (30 or 60 mins back on ITV then) and really enjoyed it. When BT got the rights I basically stopped as there wasn't good coverage I could see. This year I've got back into it as I can watch the youtube streams and it is good, top class racing. I have always supported Mercedes as I saw them as the underdogs (worst brand every year since 2012, we can win someday!) so I will miss them when they go. DTM and the racing will be ever poorer without them. Audi and BMW must bring more cars next year (8 or 9) to improve the grid as 12 cars is not enough.

This was always going to happen. The DTM is too much a manufacturers championship and not for privateers. They even instill this with a championship just for the brands (I know WRC does this but anyone can run a car independently). It is the only championship I know with no 'privateers' and for good reason, it doesn't work. Works teams are allowed funding by boardrooms, independents by managers on the ground so at the end of the day a decision to stop is quicker and easier for 1 head office meeting (Peugeot LMP1, Citreon+Lada WTCC...) than a privateer run by racers who will race till they have nothing, no less than nothing (Manor, Caterham...). The second a corporate target changes they can be gone
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 21:18 (Ref:3754097)   #78
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Didn't see this coming....although if you think about it it's not a surprise. Formula E is the new Walhalla. Personally I don't care about FE, but also not really care about current DTM.

F1 and FE for Mercedes factory teams, GT3 and GT4 for customers. Hopefully they add a A-Class TCR car.

Maybe they can split current TCR Germany in a DTM top league and a second league with promotion and relegation.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 21:20 (Ref:3754098)   #79
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Works teams are allowed funding by boardrooms, independents by managers on the ground so at the end of the day a decision to stop is quicker and easier for 1 head office meeting (Peugeot LMP1, Citreon+Lada WTCC...) than a privateer run by racers who will race till they have nothing, no less than nothing (Manor, Caterham...). The second a corporate target changes they can be gone
And still Manor and Caterham ceased their business in F1. These silhouettes are too expensive. I still can not understand why they are so expensive, as chassis are not converted out of standard body - they are all built from ground, engines are not superbly sophisticated even for 2000's when they have appeared. I do not understand why this cars are so expensive. GT500 are expensive because works teams can modify them slightly and have two versions of engines for a season (and who knows how many test and development engines). But this DTM we have now - these cars are just brought to us right from the 2000's. And today we have Argentinian TC2000 which is watchable and cars are not that expensive (well, with a spec engine of course which is a dull stuff for a racing enthusiast). So, DTM is sinking just because of its' "exclusivity". And curiously expensive old cars.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 21:27 (Ref:3754100)   #80
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I don't know where it stands with the general public, but corporate boardrooms are in love with FE.
Whiny little toy cars on **** tyres and **** circuits.

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Sh!t the bed. This is terrible news.
Yep. DTM looks to be dead - unless another manufacturer comes in (hugely unlikely with the current regs). I suspect BMW will concentrate on their new GTE program (even though GTE also looks to be on shaky ground) and Audi can concentrate on customer cars for GT3 and TCR.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 21:38 (Ref:3754105)   #81
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Matt K should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMatt K should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
DTM needs a huge revolution now if it is to stay. I really believe DTM will survive but it won't be the same again. DTM should've changed cars some time ago, then it would be easier to attract new manufacturers etc. Now maybe collaboration with Super GT would make DTM still alive.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 21:44 (Ref:3754107)   #82
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I'm shocked I heard the news on 5Live......

However, I've always felt the DTM tried too hard to be like F1; and completely lost direction. It could/ should have been a really good series, but never quite knew what it wanted to be.

As for FE; I still struggle to understand the hold it has over the Manufacturers. It gets far too much coverage for what it is. Until it can race on proper circuits, etc it will be utter garbage.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 22:07 (Ref:3754111)   #83
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Whiny little toy cars on **** tyres and **** circuits.



Yep. DTM looks to be dead - unless another manufacturer comes in (hugely unlikely with the current regs). I suspect BMW will concentrate on their new GTE program (even though GTE also looks to be on shaky ground) and Audi can concentrate on customer cars for GT3 and TCR.
Also Audi and BMW join FE with full factory teams.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 22:39 (Ref:3754112)   #84
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DTM needs a huge revolution now if it is to stay. I really believe DTM will survive but it won't be the same again. DTM should've changed cars some time ago, then it would be easier to attract new manufacturers etc. Now maybe collaboration with Super GT would make DTM still alive.
I admire your optimism but if Mercedes isn't replaced I think the series will fold at the end of 2018.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 00:29 (Ref:3754124)   #85
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Whiny little toy cars on **** tyres and **** circuits.
Yes, we all know how long time racing fans feel about FE --the word 'fanboost' is enough to make anyone on this forum gag, but I'm curious if the general public view it as some sort of F1-lite, the way corporations (and pro drivers) seem to.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 00:59 (Ref:3754129)   #86
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Yes, we all know how long time racing fans feel about FE --the word 'fanboost' is enough to make anyone on this forum gag, but I'm curious if the general public view it as some sort of F1-lite, the way corporations (and pro drivers) seem to.
ahem
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 01:07 (Ref:3754131)   #87
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OK, back on topic... The DTM is in serious danger now. If I were Gerhard Berger, I'd be Googling the Superstars rule book and seeing if people were interested in big banger saloon car racing, or else wondering about a GT3 sprint series.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 08:11 (Ref:3754183)   #88
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touring fan01 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridtouring fan01 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridtouring fan01 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
BMW and Audi won't stay - DTM will be dead at end of next season
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 08:19 (Ref:3754185)   #89
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I'm sure they are starting evaluating what is next for DTM. I believe BMW and Audi will not leave immediately, the same as DTM will not be resolved immediately. Firstly, they will do everything they can to ensure DTM can go ahead after Mercedes' exit.
But, yes, I agree, if there is no Mercedes replacement, the DTM is sadly dead.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 08:34 (Ref:3754187)   #90
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Unless a new manufacturer joins, this is not good. DTM has managed to keep the grid numbers reasonable, with Merc out it will dwindle very badly. The other alternative is BMW and Audi add in more cars
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 11:04 (Ref:3754208)   #91
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Unless a new manufacturer joins, this is not good. DTM has managed to keep the grid numbers reasonable, with Merc out it will dwindle very badly. The other alternative is BMW and Audi add in more cars
They could also switch to a multi-class-format with GT3/GT4/TCR cars making up the numbers.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 11:05 (Ref:3754209)   #92
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They could also switch to a multi-class-format with GT3/GT4/TCR cars making up the numbers.


Probably the best option ATM, especially seen as DTM to me is a cross between GT and tin top
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 11:35 (Ref:3754216)   #93
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According to Motorsport Magazin it is not possible to run with two manufacturers only.
Also I can't see DTM going multi class, I doubt it will be on agenda.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 11:45 (Ref:3754221)   #94
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They could also switch to a multi-class-format with GT3/GT4/TCR cars making up the numbers.
ADAC already has GT Masters (GT3) and a TCR series, and both in very good health. Why would they want to combine those as a DTM replacement ?
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 11:47 (Ref:3754222)   #95
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The last time we were in a situation like this (back in the 1997-1999 interregnum when it became clear that Supertouring was just as unsustainable as the original class 1), people came up with all kinds of crazy and creative ideas on how to fill the void at the top of the German (and to a lesser degree: European) racing landscape. In the end, none of them really succeeded, but I am pretty sure people will throw a lot of sh*t at the wall over the next 2 or 3 years to see what sticks.

And just like back then the solution to the problem doesn't necessarily have to be a touring car series at all. Back in 1999 Willy Weber came tantalizingly close to launching EUROC, a series for front-engined open top sports prototypes with manufacturer specific engines and bodywork but spec chassis. Similarly, I can see people trying to fill the void left by DTM this time around with DPis, Indycars or even a national version of Formula E.


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ADAC already has GT Masters (GT3) and a TCR series, and both in very good health. Why would they want to combine those as a DTM replacement ?
Well, I'm not saying they would combine them. "Raid" might be the better term. As for the motivation for teams joining DTM rather than staying in their home series: ADAC GT is still the rather amateurish two-driver/fixed-time pitstops format, so I could see a number of teams interested in a straight up single driver format. Probably not the majority, but they might be able to come up with a ten car GT3-field.

As for TCR: ADAC TCR is oversubscribed, so one might argue that there's a demand for more places to run these cars in Germany, especially with a credible TV package.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 12:26 (Ref:3754226)   #96
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ADAC GT is still the rather amateurish two-driver/fixed-time pitstops format
That's not amateurish - a two-driver race with minimum pit-stop time is pretty much standard for every national GT3 series.

Again, why would ADAC 'raid' cars from other series, and potentially deplete those series, just to prop up an otherwise dead series.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 12:43 (Ref:3754229)   #97
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That's not amateurish - a two-driver race with minimum pit-stop time is pretty much standard for every national GT3 series.

Again, why would ADAC 'raid' cars from other series, and potentially deplete those series, just to prop up an otherwise dead series.
DTM is not an ADAC series, at least not in the same way as ADAC GT and TCR.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 12:59 (Ref:3754236)   #98
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I just had a chat with Gary Paffett about his thoughts on Mercedes' withdrawal. Here's what he had to say:

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/spor...itive-13382487
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 13:03 (Ref:3754238)   #99
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As for FE; I still struggle to understand the hold it has over the Manufacturers. It gets far too much coverage for what it is..
CSR.

Seen to be doing good.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 13:04 (Ref:3754239)   #100
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When BT got the rights I basically stopped as there wasn't good coverage I could see. This year I've got back into it as I can watch the youtube streams and it is good, top class racing.
Agreed, YouTube has helped me get into the DTM currently and the racing has been excellent this season on the whole.
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