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16 Jul 2007, 16:41 (Ref:1964564) | #26 | |||
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16 Jul 2007, 16:56 (Ref:1964577) | #27 | |||
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16 Jul 2007, 17:33 (Ref:1964945) | #28 | ||
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2 things, the FPA in Camp is obviously in a more dangerous place than a car on the pit straight, it only got hit due to drivers not slowing down under yellows.
Safety Cars and red Flags are not dished out willy nilly, far from it, and all marshals and officials on the day did an excellent job of getting through the day before curfue. When the safety car is out double yellows are used in the sector of the incident, single yellow elsewhere, waved when the train is in the flag sector. With the conditions on Sunday it must have been VERY hard for any observer to judge if a car was in a safe position or not, better to be on the side of caution. |
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16 Jul 2007, 19:09 (Ref:1965020) | #29 | ||
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All interesting stuff, and I absolutely agree with Jim W about the safety car regs. Those he described were used by F3/GT up till a few years ago, then it was decided (as I recall) to standardise on one set of safety car regs - and they chose the wrong ones!
Still the real reson I decided to make one of my rare appearances on here was some of the worst use of yelow flags I've ever seen, at Bobbies on the Saturday. Here's the scenario. FPA car clips the tyres on the way in, breaks front suspension and parks in the corn about 5 feet in (that's about 10-15 yards off the track and pretty well out of the way for those who aren't familiar), driver hops out and is eventually persuaded to walk a bit further back into the field. Correct flag signal, stationary yellow for a lap, then a hazard board. Job done. Signal given, double waved yellow for the rest of the session (5 mins??)... Just ludicrous, what have you got left to warn drivers if something serious happened, like a car on (or in fact anywhere near) the track. And as there was nothing there, the drivers ignored the flags, and frankly I couldn't blame them. If we as a whole don't stop overusing yellows, no driver is going to take a blind bit of notice of them, and people are going to get badly hurt. Last edited by Marshal; 16 Jul 2007 at 19:11. |
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16 Jul 2007, 19:48 (Ref:1965058) | #30 | ||
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Perhaps we should look to the USA for guidance on saftey cars / rolling starts / restarts they have no problems there but there seem to be constant issues in the UK. Remember the BRSCC fiasco at the Silverstone 1000km a couple of years back
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16 Jul 2007, 20:00 (Ref:1965070) | #31 | |||
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BUT the drivers were obviously not slowing for one stationary yellow, so what is you suggestion for slowing them down, why not be constructive rather than just waiting till after the event, why not say something at the time????? It seemed like something serious would happen if they couldn't make the cars slow down (like they should) |
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16 Jul 2007, 20:46 (Ref:1965114) | #32 | ||
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For clarity, the Blue Book states:
- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track. - Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or STOP. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track. |
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16 Jul 2007, 20:46 (Ref:1965116) | #33 | |||
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castle combe circuit is by far the best in the country |
16 Jul 2007, 21:26 (Ref:1965155) | #34 | |
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I am by no means an expert on the use of safety cars etc. but would the proceedings over the weekend have anything to do with the fact, as shown in the programme, that all the visiting championships had their own nominated "clerks of the course" whilst the local series maintained the usual official. Just a thought. Who actually makes the decision to launch the safety car ?
Last edited by Hamness; 16 Jul 2007 at 21:29. |
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16 Jul 2007, 21:31 (Ref:1965160) | #35 | |||
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IIRC there was a nasty shunt back in the Group C days involving a Mercedes at the (new) Nurburgring in very poor conditions, although this was probably in spite of waved yellows. |
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16 Jul 2007, 21:58 (Ref:1965180) | #36 | ||
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Combe Marshal
As this is a public forum and I find your comments unforgivable I have sent you a PM - Balders Last edited by M Greenslade; 16 Jul 2007 at 22:05. |
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16 Jul 2007, 22:16 (Ref:1965201) | #37 | |||
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16 Jul 2007, 23:37 (Ref:1965266) | #38 | |||
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We are all adults so I see no reason to keep something away from us. Please share your feelings. Maybe it's the right time to discuss things in the open. Maybe that's the only right way to discuss matters? |
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17 Jul 2007, 07:03 (Ref:1965372) | #39 | |||
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castle combe circuit is by far the best in the country |
17 Jul 2007, 07:19 (Ref:1965379) | #40 | ||
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Incidentally, the FPA was on the exit of Camp / pit straight in a place where you all too often see cars run wide, hence thinking it was a slightly strange decision for no SC for that incident. |
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17 Jul 2007, 07:58 (Ref:1965406) | #41 | ||
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It’s this sort of antics that have virtually stopped me from marshalling at combe,
Shame because I like combe very much... Since going over to the CCRC things have gone downhill in marshalling standards For example As an Observer I am always used as an incident role ( this I don’t object to) But when told it’s because there are more experienced Obs Out there on circuit and find that when I get to post there is an I/O in Obs position or 4 Observers together Begs for answers I think. So quary and flags think who was in charge on the posts. Are the posts manned correctly? |
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17 Jul 2007, 08:09 (Ref:1965426) | #42 | |
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Having played this game for a number of years, I think the answer is that no-one is ever happy with the decision made to deploy or not deploy a safety car and to throw or not to throw a red flag.
If clerks threw a red at every point that there was some risk we'd never get through a timetable. Clearly their are lines and good decisions have to be made but often the initial decision is judged with the hindsight of knowing whether we "got away with it" or not. |
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17 Jul 2007, 08:35 (Ref:1965457) | #43 | |||
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What you have said for single & double waved yellows is more or less a paraphrase of what the blue book says for stationary & waved yellows respectively (J 16.1 (e) & (f) ) The Blue Book doesn't, as far as I can see, make any mention of double waved yellows, although J 16.1.1 (b) does allow for an additional waved yellow at a preceding post in very serious cases. |
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17 Jul 2007, 08:48 (Ref:1965474) | #44 | ||
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On the FPA Camp/startline incident: I can't be certain, but I would be very surprised if any yellows were out at all for the stationary car, which had been there for several laps at the time of the second collision. That said, all drivers should have been aware of the hazard on the side of the circuit and driven accordingly.
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17 Jul 2007, 08:49 (Ref:1965477) | #45 | ||
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I believe Dan is quoting from FIA regs not the MSA Blue Book? Like you Dave I've never read or heard of the MSA condoning double waved yellows unless using that option under the safety car regs.
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17 Jul 2007, 09:00 (Ref:1965493) | #46 | |||
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castle combe circuit is by far the best in the country |
17 Jul 2007, 09:28 (Ref:1965533) | #47 | ||
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Double waved yellows.
Sorry.. yes being a muppet, ignore me. New baby and lack of sleep being the only excuse! Should double waves be used at all below FIA Inter level?? Cars off the track (with no marshals of drivers present) require a stationary yellow. This gets dropped to a hazard board after a lap or so. Is this not common practice? If drivers don't react to the flags as required then marshals should continue to apply the Blue Book regs and report drivers after the session. We can't bend the rules. |
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17 Jul 2007, 09:52 (Ref:1965555) | #48 | ||
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Brands Hatch now has approval for vehicle snatching between 3 and 4a, and 5 and 6, and whilst the snatch is in progress double yellows are used at the appropriate post.
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17 Jul 2007, 12:57 (Ref:1965685) | #49 | ||
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Brands Hatch Snatch vehicles... Double waved yellows for moving cars stuck in the gravel I assume? If so, why would cars on the circuit have to “stop” because of that? (unless right on the edge of the track perhaps). So what happens if on the following lap a car is stranded in the middle of the track at the bottom of the hill?? What would the marshals upgrade their flags to until the red flags come? I can’t see the sense in that “rule” at all.
We all complain about drivers not responding to yellow flags but then our own misinterpretation of the rules waters their meaning down so much that they become utterly pointless. Why can’t we just use the flags as they should be used, and report any driver that disregards them? Is that so difficult? |
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17 Jul 2007, 16:45 (Ref:1965867) | #50 | |||
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Was accused of slagging off Observers, which everyone that knows me knows I will never do, and in my post up there I can't find where I did that. Only said it was difficult and it's ALWAYS better the er on the side of caution. |
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