[Rules] DRS set to be limited for next season

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by raymondu999

Is it really unanimous? I find that hard to believe. Maybe it was a motion brought forth by those who are less daring on DRS opening - those drivers who are constantly opening DRS later than their teammates. Schumacher and Webber come to mind.

Yes it was unanimous.

We should remember that the purpose of DRS is to make overtaking possible, and not to provide F1 drivers with a means of causing an accident.

Also remember that the DRS is, currently, an 'ON-OFF' device. It does not open progressively. Therefore a driver using it in a corner will come out the other side of it more by luck than judgement.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JamesH

If the system at the DRS detection point knows there is a car within 1s, then it could also knows which car. All the cars have transponders which identify them, there is also computer that know where everything is on the track at any one time, and which lap the cars are on.

For the purpose to which it is being used, I see no reason to complicate it.

[Mekola]

DRS helped a lot on overtaking issues, but I'm unsure to limit its use now when is that effective to improve spectacle.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Mekola

DRS helped a lot on overtaking issues, but I'm unsure to limit its use now when is that effective to improve spectacle.

They are not talking about limiting its use during the races, only during practice and qualifying.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Marbot

For the purpose to which it is being used, I see no reason to complicate it.

and surely if you link it to the blue flag debate it makes sense to help facilitate the overtaking move?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bella

and surely if you link it to the blue flag debate it makes sense to help facilitate the overtaking move?

Drivers of faster cars were not particularly being held up by drivers of slower cars, even when the slower car was using its DRS where the driver of the faster car could also use theirs. Drivers of faster cars are generally being held up in areas where neither car has use of DRS.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Drivers of faster cars were not particularly being held up by drivers of slower cars, even when the slower car was using its DRS where the driver of the faster car could also use theirs. Drivers of faster cars are generally being held up in areas where neither car has use of DRS.

That's interesting, where did you find it ? Any stats ?

[raymondu999]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Also remember that the DRS is, currently, an 'ON-OFF' device. It does not open progressively. Therefore a driver using it in a corner will come out the other side of it more by luck than judgement.

Actually - yes and no. The "snap" implementation of it is actually something the teams did. I don't believe I've ever seen anything in the regs saying that the DRS has to snap open. If teams were to make a "progressively opening" DRS that I believe would be legal.

Personally I have no issues with DRS being used to lap people. However I do have an issue with DRS being used to unlap people. Sometimes leaders lap back markers just into a DRS detection line, and the other guy suddenly whizzes by using DRS to unlap himself. A recent case in point would be Barrichello unlapping himself on Lewis Hamilton with the DRS in Abu Dhabi

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

That's interesting, where did you find it ? Any stats ?

No stats, just general observations.

Originally Posted by raymondu999

Actually - yes and no. The "snap" implementation of it is actually something the teams did. I don't believe I've ever seen anything in the regs saying that the DRS has to snap open. If teams were to make a "progressively opening" DRS that I believe would be legal.

It may be legal (although the FIA rules on ECU useage probably say that it's not), but perhaps less efficient that one which just 'snaps' open on the straights?

Originally Posted by raymondu999

However I do have an issue with DRS being used to unlap people. Sometimes leaders lap back markers just into a DRS detection line, and the other guy suddenly whizzes by using DRS to unlap himself. A recent case in point would be Barrichello unlapping himself on Lewis Hamilton with the DRS in Abu Dhabi

I don't have a problem with that.

[Marbot]

Some very interesting 'stats' on overtaking.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns23758.html

[chillibowl]

i dont have a problem with back markers gaining back a position.

but got me thinking, depending on the track often a faster car will wait for a straight to pass a back marker (or the back marker waits until a straight to pull to off the racing line)...does the lead driver get to use DRS to pass a backmarker if he was within a second at the activation zone?

im sure the answer is yes but that somehow seems wrong.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i dont have a problem with back markers gaining back a position.

but got me thinking, depending on the track often a faster car will wait for a straight to pass a back marker (or the back marker waits until a straight to pull to off the racing line)...does the lead driver get to use DRS to pass a backmarker if he was within a second at the activation zone?

im sure the answer is yes but that somehow seems wrong.

You can only use the DRS at the activation zone if you were within one second of any car in front of you in the detection zone. If you were 1.1 seconds away from the car in front at the detection zone, you cannot use DRS after that, even if you have got within 1 second of the car in front of you at the activation zone.

[raymondu999]

Originally Posted by Marbot

It may be legal (although the FIA rules on ECU useage probably say that it's not), but perhaps less efficient that one which just 'snaps' open on the straights?

The primary limitation is really how much rear grip you're using.

In a straight for example, in qualifying; you'd have 4 phases:
1) Rear grip < engine torque
2) Rear grip = engine torque
3) Rear grip > engine torque.
4) Rear grip - DRS downforce loss = engine torque
5) Rear grip - DRS downforce loss > engine torque

In phase 1 you'd be traction limited. You wouldn't be right foot flat on the floor; because you'd just get wheelspin. Phase 2 would be the moment upon which your foot has just reached the "flat out" point on your throttle pedal.

Now there would be a time between phases 3 and 4 - this would be when you could be full throttle with the wing closed for more downforce, but if you opened it, you'd have wheelspin. If you could get to just be on the fine edge constantly where your engine torque would match the amount of grip you have as the wing slowly goes up (downforce slowly reduces) then that would be the optimum.

Right now; drivers would be activating DRS when they hit phase 4. But they can't do it in between phase 3 and 4 - a "slow opening" DRS flap; if finely tuned enough would allow that.

[chillibowl]

but surely if you are about to lap another car (and less than 1 sec behind in the detection zone) then you are 1 lap less a second behind the back marker you are about to pass. obviously its about physical difference rather than based on track position.

i guess its hypocritical that it bothers me for the lead car and not so much for a back marker unlapping himself.

[raymondu999]

Yep it's based on TRACK position; but not RACE position (p1, p2, p3)

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

obviously its about physical difference rather than based on track position.

Originally Posted by raymondu999

Yep it's based on TRACK position; but not RACE position (p1, p2, p3)

welcome to the forum and yep thats what i meant/ was trying to get at

im totally confusing myself but should it not also be based on race position. actually im not sure what im saying...slow day.

everyone feel free to carry on!

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but surely if you are about to lap another car (and less than 1 sec behind in the detection zone) then you are 1 lap less a second behind the back marker you are about to pass. obviously its about physical difference rather than based on track position.

i guess its hypocritical that it bothers me for the lead car and not so much for a back marker unlapping himself.

As it is designed to restore the advantage of the slipstream (which is reduced with modern aerdynamics) it is perfectly logical that you get it when you are physically close behind any car, after all the conventional tow doesn't care what lap you are on.

[chillibowl]

perfect answer to my question and the world makes sense again.
thanks