[Rules] Should they get rid of blue flags?

[Marbot]

Some drivers in yesterdays race felt that they had been unjustly punished for holding up traffic. So, I got to thinking that perhaps it was time they tried something else.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96217

[ascarracinguk]

in a word NO!

they may moan about it, but they just feel peeved off because they buggered up!....blue flags are there for safety reasons and work very well for most people....just because a couple of drivers are a bit peeved after one race it doesnt mean we should get rid of them, it just means they should open their eyes!

[Ingsy]

Surely the DRS would now help leading cars get past cars they are lapping, but are not necessarily that much slower. In previous years leaders could have got held up really quite badly, but surely now it's only for 1 lap, tops, as they should be able to get past in the DRS zone?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Ingsy

Surely the DRS would now help leading cars get past cars they are lapping, but are not necessarily that much slower. In previous years leaders could have got held up really quite badly, but surely now it's only for 1 lap, tops, as they should be able to get past in the DRS zone?

Good point!

[phoenix]

The rule needs to be applied consistently - as do all rules, but apart from that I can't think of a better solution. If two cars are racing each other when they are caught, then one may lose 4 seconds, but the second car in the scrap will also lose a similar amount of time getting out of the way.

Maldonado and Senna had a choice: lose (maybe) 4 seconds by obeying the blue flags/lights or gamble with the stewards and maybe lose 16 seconds with a drive through. They both lost the gamble.

[werner]

The obvious solution is offcourse trying to improve your speed so you won't get lapped anymore.

[Bonanza]

There is a strong argument by some that leading drivers should fight for all positions, including while lapping people. It's an interesting concept, but if such a thing were to be ever put in place (I doubt it) Then I would like to see blue flags remain, but just to warn drivers that the leading cars are in the vicinity.

It would certainly spice things up that's for sure, but whether it would just create much unnecessary havoc amongst drivers wouldn't be known until properly tried out, but one would fear for that occurance.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by werner

The obvious solution is offcourse trying to improve your speed so you won't get lapped anymore.

That's not as easy as you make it sound.

[Aysedasi]

There is of course a marked difference between lapped drivers trying to allow those passing them to do so without undue hindrance and the expectation that some leading drivers seem to have that a blue flag means that the driver to be lapped has to give up his own race to leap out of the way as soon as they appear in their mirrors. It's one of the things that those who follow other forms of motorsport notice particularly about F1 blue flagging - just ask the Audi drivers at Le Mans this year if they think the blue flags had any real purpose.....

[Adam43]

At Le Mans a blue doesn't mean get out of the way McNish is coming through. Even if he would like/need it too. It works like it does in other forms of motor racing. It is there to just highlight a faster car is coming up behind (lapping or otherwise). Useful information for a driver.

In F1 they can co-ordinate it a little better due to the single class, relative small numbers and sophistication of the timing. It means get out of the way, you are being lapped and do it within three blue flags.
I assume that the original question is more along the lines of should it be applied like that, as opposed to having them at all (?).

Consistent application? Well it happens on the same circuit, at the same corners, with the same closing speed, then perhaps it is. Consistent application of a situation that can occur in many different ways. Difficult. Better to sensibly apply. As they do with the pit lane exit white line. Although it makes peoples heads explode.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I assume that the original question is more along the lines of should it be applied like that, as opposed to having them at all (?).

Well yes. But the aggrieved parties seem making noises about losing time in the race because of having to yield to faster cars in certain parts of the track which make them lose more time relative to the car that they are also trying to catch and pass.

So, maybe, a lapped car is getting blue flags whilst going into a slow section of track whilst another driver is getting his 2nd and 3rd blue flags at the beginning of a straight where it is easier to let faster cars pass?

It's important to remember that the guys in the midfield and lower ranked cars are also 'racing'. Some of them for their very existence in the sport!

[stripedcat]

Personally speaking, I would like to see this rule get scrapped. If you look some of the old races from the 1980s or before that, the leading car was slowed down by having to lap the backmarkers, that made it possible for it to get caught and passed by the following cars. I am thinking of Senna getting passed by Mansell, in Hungary in 1989, and Piquet by Mansell, in Austria 1987. I think at Monaco however, it would have to be enforced.

[luke g28]

You cant enforce it at some tracks and not at others. Nobody else really struggles with the rule but it was pretty appalling this week.

[strider]

I didn't see what Senna did, but Maldonado should have been black flagged. The post-race penalty was pointless because it changed nothing.

[ChrisPage]

I've always been keen to try getting rid of the blue flags to see how it works. Even just as a three race trial or similar. It always seems silly to be saying a car is a whole lap (at least) quicker and yet can't get past - well, tell you what buddy if you're so quick, get past him yourself! It could open up an interesting new way of seeing racing at the front (witness Hamilton on Webber in Hungary).

Of course I know there are many potential pitfalls. The lapped car still shouldn't be 'racing' the leaders, just not automatically jumping out the way. What happens when a lead battle is hampered by the loyalties of the driver/team being lapped, it would need to be fair. But I would be in favour of seeing it trialed.

In this case of course the issue is more one of consistency in application of the rules. Fat chance (sorry I'm very cynical on rules being interpreted consistently!).

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

At Le Mans a blue doesn't mean get out of the way McNish is coming through. Even if he would like/need it too. It works like it does in other forms of motor racing. It is there to just highlight a faster car is coming up behind (lapping or otherwise). Useful information for a driver.

In F1 they can co-ordinate it a little better due to the single class, relative small numbers and sophistication of the timing. It means get out of the way, you are being lapped and do it within three blue flags.
I assume that the original question is more along the lines of should it be applied like that, as opposed to having them at all (?).

Not sure on Le Mans flag rules but in F1, a lapped driver is required to move over as soon as a car on the lead lap comes up behind them. The blue flag is used (according to the rules) if the lapped car does not move over.

That means that the blue flag is in effect a lapped driver's last warning - they should have got out of the way before even getting the flag.

I'd leave the flags in place, too many dodgy outcomes possible if it becomes a free for all and I'd much rather see the race for the lead as fair as possible without interference from lapped cars.

Then again, we could always go back to "the Piquet solution".

[Paradise City]

Yes, they should scrap the blue flags. No need to replace them with anything. A pacey backmarker, who has perhaps been delayed, should be allowed to fight to stay on the lead lap. A racer won't have a problem overcoming a backmarker that's bog slow. Best of all it's a way of sprucing up the show that's traditional.

[mattt]

If any changes are needed it should be to make the Blue flag rules the same as most other series - advisory.

But in all honesty i see no reason to change it, its all swings and roundabouts, one time you will lose out the next time you might gain.

[Born Racer]

If you read my thread on the philosophy of penalties, you'll see that I advocate an approach that says 'let them sort racing incidents out and the law of avergages will balance things out'.

I would propose similar for lapping and say that, yes, the idea that a driver must move over within 3 blue flags/ lights ought to be eliminated. Blue flags and lights themselves should remain to allow the driver about to be lapped to know what's going on.

The principal reason I would eliminate the rule would be because we see how a lapped driver's race can be spoiled by having to get out the way. I understand 3 flags allows a driver time to use skill in moving over costing themselves as little time as possible, but sometimes even then, they fall back a lot in their own battle with another driver.

If you let drivers get on with making the moves themselves and penalise ridiculous cases of blocking and not giving room for the overtaker (similar to how I mentioned in the other thread only penalising ridiculous overtaking disasters), this eliminates the problem of lapped drivers losing out in their own race; we must remember that the racers up front have no more right to have a battle than those being lapped. The perception at the moment is not of that, I sense.

It's also notable that in karting (at least it was the case when I last raced ten years ago), drivers are told not to move over but to 'give room' and let the overtaker pass: essentially, they are told not to make things difficult and be aware when they are shown blue flags, but to follow their line.

[TrapezeArtist]

So what most people are saying is, "Let's go back to the way it was before the rule was changed 15 or 20 years ago."

The blue flag was changed from information to instruction then because of the gradually increasing difficulty of overtaking in F1, even when there was a big difference in lap times. Whether KERS/DRS/Pirelli has improved things enough is an interesting question.

A three race trial seems like a good idea. Actually the ideal time to trial it would have been immediately after Vettel was confirmed World Champion. I know there are drivers still battling for lesser placings and there was the Manufacturers Championship still to be decided, but at least it could have been done then with a bit less pressure.

[TrapezeArtist]

If we downgraded blue flags to a warning of imminent approach, there would be a worry that certain 'B' Team drivers might make life easier for their own 'A' Team colleagues than their colleague's rivals. Whether or not it was real, the conspiracy theorists would have a field day.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

So, I got to thinking that perhaps it was time they tried something else.

Stop doing that, please !

[Marbot]

[crmalcolm]

I have a couple of thoughts on the Blue Flag issue.

Firstly, if the Blue Flag is a safety feature, then why didn't the cars being passed by Williams receive Blue Flags? The Williams were arguably much faster than HRT/Virgin/Lotus. The same would surely be true if one of the top-three teams drivers missed out in Q1 for whatever reason.
I know the counter to that is that it would be unfair for someone who has out-qualified a Red Bull say, to concede their position straight away.

Secondly, if DRS is used as a reason to remove Blue Flags, then is it unfair if you catch someone just after the DRS zone and have to wait a whole lap?
Again, this could be argued that it is just the luck of the race, and something that will even out over time.

Thirdly, I can see the point that some drivers lose out depending on when they receive a blue flag. This can also be argued that it will even out over time.

There are two ways I would suggest as the preferred method using blue flags.

Method A: When you are receiving blue flags, you are to remain on the natural racing line at all times. You do not deviate, or attempt to race either the person lapping you, or the person you are directly competing with. In this instance, yes it is hard for the lapping driver to pass, but they do know how the car in front is going to drive. The cars being passed should generally not be disadvantaged because they are able to maintain their position to the car in front. I would also argue that this could result in some of the off-line debris being removed by the car lapping, leading to more potential overtakes.

Method B: Keep the rules as they are.

[Born Racer]

I like your Method A; the rationale is sound.